Curious questions about BH - Page 3

Proposed Schutzhund Rule Changes for 2011

2010 WUSV JUDGES SEMINAR - by GSSCC Judge Lance Collins

"Heeling with the head turned up the way the Malinois frequently heel is not a natural body posture for German Shepherds and cannot be graded excellent."

 

This does not say the dog should not to look at the handler. It says that the vertical head position often seen in Malinois is not a natural position for the GSD. Now, I don't think it shouldn't be able to achieve an excellent score by heeling in this way. What I do think is that this style of heeling shouldn't be a new standard to receive a V score.

I'm not advocating the removal of the focused heeling, but how does that weaken what is supposed to be a test of the dog? Gunfire tests a dog. The wall used to test the dog. Most of the protection work tests the dog. Much of the test today is a test of training. Do you think that the focused heeling was always in SchH?

Basically the way the sport is going, if the show dogs can't do it, take it out.  It's kinda like watching that Marx Bros movie where they tore up the contract line by line. 

I hate commercials where the sponsoring company has to use someone else's product to try and make their's appear better, for example, the Pepsi Max commercial with Coke Zero, or the Burger King commercial with the double cheeseburger compared to MacDonald's.  To me, it just reinforces the quality of the competitor's work.  Just make whatever you provide the best and people will purchase it on it's own merit.  These days, if you want to win, you get a Malinois.

My dogs don't heel with their heads straight up at my armpit...but I really don't care if someone else's dog does.  I look at the overall picture.  I won't say a dog doesn't deserve this rating or that rating based on heeling alone.  Plenty of dogs get V rated scores or even 100 pts without heeling like that so I don't see why it matters if a few Malinois people do it that way.

@ Don, A dog that is not showing focus is either low drive for the work, not trained to focus on the handler (not so good training), or has too much of a nerve issue too because it is to worried about everything else around it.  This is a "test" and it should do exactly that and if we start taking out some of these things where do you think it will stop? No this focused type heeling has not always been there but i think it is a good thing that has evolved out of people training their dogs to get  higher points.

@ the Dude, I want to win but i will do it with a GSD. I just dont think i could stand seeing a mali around.

Don .. you are most correct I agree  !! .. a 'focused healing ' tells us nothing about the dog !! i will not advocate , or not advocate that exercise [ focused heel] ..   for the record , [ and for newbies ] i have trained Sch done french ring  and other sports ... i have my dog focus , in essence, because where the eyes go so do the thoughts .. i control dogs  using my eyes at times ../ even if i do helper /decoy work .. i will work the dog with my eyes ! So eye contactfor me  is a preference .. BUT ... in regards to the BH ... the POINT .... " the DOGS PERFORM " in direct correlation as to how we taught them .or not taught them .. or what we failed to teach them .. -  such as :  the dog forges .. is because we taught them tto forge  .. dog crowds .. because we taught them to crowd .. e.g . put a ball in your left / right  pocket ... ya .. motivates the dog .. but where is the tendency to look .. at your pocket.. where is the dog's tendency to gravitate while walking .. your left / right pocket .[ IMO THAT IS NOT A FOCUSED HEEL ] that tells me nothing about the dog's tendency to "BE OBEDIENT ".. DON IS CORRECT !! - it is a function of what was learned by the dog , which often is very very different than what we think we have taught !!OR the true requirement / intent of an exercise !!! AND ... if a dog is going ahead and is looking back .. 90% of the time it is not looking at the handler as a herding/ a watching trait or behavior  .. it looks back many times to the handler  because .. it is anticipating a 'correction'[ sometimesa  harsh correction]  .. ....................... the dog does not need  to focus on the handler .. the dog knows exactly where you are , what you are feeling , they can see you looking straight ahead - that is why i always lead off with the  right foot , not the left , the right .. my right foot before the dog moves is already out 1 foot and in a walking position .... the dog already can see the movement  loking at me or not !!, i have not moved because my left foot is still in same position -the right foot moved but the foot beside the dog , the left has not  but by looking peripherally the dog already had been cued by the right foot to move - if it does look at my face , peripherally it can see my right  foot always in advance .. no need to come around my body , no need to crowd , no need to forge !! the opposite for stopping , plant the right foot first and 1 second more slowly than the last step , then slide the left  up , dog looks at my face , i am stopped before my . [ IMO better cues for heeling motion ] what i am saying is .. the dog wants to know where to walk .. BUT there are cues he can see AT the SAME TIME by attgending to my face , he can ATTEND to me and the other cues !!  this gives the dog a chance to move with my left foot , looking at my face IN UNISION , - i never have a split second movement of my left side without my dog moving by my left side too.. ---if i move the lleft foot first it will be at least a split second ahead of the dog , and creates the impresion at times the dog is not with you ..therefore , right foot always first in stepping .. [ right- left , right- left , not left -right  , left -right ].  ALWAYS :    the dog does ... what we have taught him !! just like a basketball player he uses his senses .. they guard just by feeling the precense of the opponent by the mere outstretch of a hand .. so does the dog .. they also feel the presence of what we do .. so teach the dog with presence awareness too .  !! Again ,the ' Focused  BH heel ' tells us nothing about the dog' as much as about ourselves , what we do and what the dog has learned [ taught by us correctly or not]

Alphapup, If that is the case why do we even do any heeling? What about showing the dogs ability to be trained? Or his willingness to work, or to please its handler? I teach my dogs to make eye contact not just look for the ball. A focused heel also tells us that a dog has the ability to stay focused on their handler and not get distracted by the enviroment it is in.

I guess you can look at it that way, but after all everything we teach our dogs to do for schutzhund is a trained excersize. Some people train correctly and some just try to get by.

faq2 -- the dog does not need to look at our face to be focused to the task , which is to walk in sync/in a specific position with me .. unless you wish to add 'and look into my face ' as an addition to the statement.  in ring sport , same exercise , a heel .. the dogs need not look in your face .. you go .. dog goes.. you stop .. the dog automatically stops and sits . no face looking .. naturally .. there are envirnomental factors- all the time , every sport ..  ... but the dog concentrates preforms the task .. the training itself  does not by and of itself address the trainability of a dog or the willingness of a dog to please .. i have trained some of my GSDs  , several that are highly independent , very dominant , that prefer to please themselves .. they all never mind in heeeling , but allllso all the other endeavors do not take their eyes off me . In heeling ,.  they are with me , step for step ... and vice a verse .. i have seen some dogs with a super behavioral traits displaying high pack affinity , love to do tasks with thier handlers , but you would not appreciate the extent of those traits  because the people that trained [ and i mean trainers of Sch for 20 years +] t did not have a clue what they were doing !! honestly .. i still don't know THE REASON for a focused heel in Sch but i can state that SCH is based on being a character test of the dog , therefore should not IMO be an assesment of the training .    what ,  looking into the hanlder's face while heeling is supposed to test .. beats me ..i really don't know .. .and IMO when i evaluate a dog .. i don't care if the handler can train or not ..[ although i can see what and how that dog was trained] ---  we all have different skills and levels and i realize this is a sport / pastime for amny many poeple .. i don't judge their abitities at all ..  .. I want to know THE DOG !! ......   same as the show ring .. the dog gaits / stands/ comes & goes  & it is ranked in also what physical condition & show training as it is exhibited ..NOW .. that is a hoot !! my firends are SV judges .. i can tell you .. they assess the dog in a 2 sec.  glance .. they alrready can tell in a blink of an eye .. V/ VA rated structure .. sports / training / show ...   IMO if a dog was not in as a pysical condition displaying endurance , or not as falshy in showing ?? why is the dog itself given an inferior show rating ?? again just show me the dog , don't show me pedigrees either !! not everything is as it seems to be [ or as it is meant to be ] .. if you don't believe me ... you will learn .. i guarantee .. you will learn !!

The Position i hate to see is when a Dog focused on the handler but in front walking across the Handler who is In reality creating a new kind of  Dance step of his or her own to keep there footing as they are being tripped up by there dog, It looks awful and a lot of points should be deducted

Steve1

This whole heeling thing is not a rule. It's an interpretation of the rules by one club (SV). This happens all of the time. A club sees that their breed is having an issue and they tell their judges to emphasize this or that in an attempt to influence the situation.
 
And Nia, Lestat DID win the National in '99. Maybe we Malinois people have good cause to believe that the GSD people are trying to hold us back?