SONIA: It was the big three executives and union bosses that have raped these companies dry over the years and left them in this condition..poor ceo's . All the entertainments, salaries, bonus's on top of bonus, dinners, gifts, vacations, and the list goes on and on. Now they want help. None of us want our tax dollars pulling them up by their bootstrings.
My social securitycheck will be no good in a few months at this rate as well as the rest of you drawing it or about to. Write your congressman or woman and voice your opinion, lest we be in streets next.
Someone suggested today on the news , that let the Union pay half of the billions they are asking for...not a bad idea. But they may have to ride a bus to work or sell the family jet.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Yes indeed, but lets face it, its a paltry, measly sum they ask for.... $25 Billion and the 3 actually make something that keeps over 3 million employed & their families fed, as compared to the $700 Billion Theft/Bailout for Wall Street Banksters.
AIG is an insurance company Run & Owned by a Dual Citizen of Israel, they alone got $150 Billion.
Be careful what you wish for. We wont need finance companies after the Banksters get done finishing with our manufacturing industry. There will be nothing left to finance. All by design.
Im no fan of their Union, theyve outlived their usefulness and a pariah but it will be a sad day if these Corps go down.
You did know that Lehman had $400 Billion shipped to Israel before reporting Bankruptcy? It was reported 'missing' and reported in Bloomberg as such. Bend over..
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Awesome. No really. I'm in awe. At the very moment GM NA's cash flow has gone bye-bye (thanks to union strikes at American Axle and GM factories), just days before the automaker gives the world the gory details of its American cash conflagration, the General reveals that it's bumped-up– sorry, "restored" its top suit's salary. CEO Rick Wagoner's paycheck returns to its 2003 - 2006 levels, from the "reduced" $1.65m back to $2.2m. But don't get to feeling what the Hell, it's only a $570k jump, and it WAS his old salary. Automotive News reports that Rick's TOTAL compensation for '07 was $14.4m, or $39,452.05 per day (including weekends). Meanwhile, Car Czar "Maximum" Bob Lutz gets a nice little "thank you" for winning TTAC's Bob Lutz Award: a base salary "boost" from $1.3m p.a. to $1.75m (so much for "I gave at the office"). MB's total compensation for '07: $6.9m. Newly promoted GM COO (from CFO) Fritz Henderson gets $1.8m; total pay package $7.6m. Friends of GM are free to defend this pay-out (supply - demand), but I find the fact that these guys are raking in MORE money as 32 GM factories are off-line, as GM struggles for its survival, appalling. But you knew that…
HOW ABOUT A LITTLE PAY CUT FIRST?
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I read somewhere yesterday that the gov. offered to give a low interest loan with some very conservative terms for the auto makers if they would consider a restructurizing plan rather than expect the billion dollar buy out. They said no to a 'loan'. So I say let them reep what they've sowed over all these years. They forget whe the gas wasn't sky high and the economy was good they were raping Americans in the ars when we were buying those expensive flashy SUV's. They put that money in their pockets and times were all good for them; no complaints. Here we are a couple years later when things have changed and they can't give trucks and SUV's away anymore and now all of a sudden they are looking for handouts?? I say NO WAY, go figure out some other way. The banks were one thing; we almost had to do something to help or our fate would only worsen but the car industry??? We could go on without it if we had to for awhile. And this is spoken from a true die hard chevy person but i can't see giving this money when it isn't gonna change their longterm situaiton. That money will be spent within a few months. It's unfortunate people will lose many jobs but it's real bad every where. The government can't be everyone's life saver to bad business decissions. But hell if the gov is quick to start handing out money to bail out companies then I wanna know where the line is so i can get in it too cause our business is suffering with the economy but we're riding it out.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I had a personal friend a few years back that joined the Lawyers Club to learn to hide money. Right before he sold his INC. business in Texas City, Texas, he sent money all over., hiding it, and one place was Belise. Well, after he rooked me into buying his 250,000.00 home to keep his son , he lied to me about, from getting it, the IRS contacted me here in Tyler , about my buying the home..I proved where my money came from , death benefits, and then the IRS after two grueling months of interagation, revealed to me, they found 3 million dollars of his , hiden in Belise.
Of course, it wasn't hidden any longer, so the poor man , divorced his wife and went into hiding., and died in hiding., in a 250,000.00 motor home somewhere in Colorado., in someone elses name. The reason for the divorce was so the Mrs. could draw her social security. The government put a lien in the Gal. Co. courthouse two months ,AFTER I had filed the deed to the home, which cleared me from losing my britches and my sanity. You can bet your last dollar, that all these executives and heads of all the banks, companies involved, have transferred money accross the ocean..But they better beware,Uncle Sam has mean eyes and they know where to look.
Also now looks like Vice Pres Cheney is in HOT WATER in Texas. SSDD
YR
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I say let them file for bankruptcy. Union and company executives have been bleeding these auto makers dry for the last 20 years. If they go into bankruptcy they will have to do things differently and that might actually save them. They will have to make cars that people actually want to buy and wages will come into line with what manufacturers pay at U.S. plants run by Toyota, Honda, etc.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
These jackass CEOs of motown iron have been gladly shipping jobs out of the country for years under nafta, cafta, gatt and wto. Michael Moore was one of the first to blow the whistle with his movie "roger and me" but got nowhere. The big three detroit auto manufacturers have a history of treating their workers badley which breeds bad union politics to counter it. Bad for business, bad for production quality and bad for the families of the workers (a complete adversarial system of very poor management).
Compare this to the Japanese manufacturers that have built plants here who pay less, provide less benefits and have much happier, more loyal workers workers. WHY? They do not have special parking places for management, no elevated lunchrooms with waiters, napkins and gourmet food for management folks at lunch, no luxury offuices for management. Plus, they reward innovative thinking for ways to lower costs and increase quality. These folks use effective worker centered management which encourages involvement and personal investment in quality by workers.
The best solution proposed was to provide large, variable catagory income tax breaks for buying a new car. The biggest tax break would be 100% write-off of grosss income for a small high mileage car, with less but significant for larger and more expensive cars. Foreign cars would get a reduced tax writeoff if they were assembled here. The % of parts manufactured in this country would be figured in with the most tax benefits going to auto made of the most parts in the USA and assembled in the USA. This would quickly clear the lots, help rebuild the detroit 3, and quick start the economy, plus save fuel. The laws could be changed to push huge tax wtrite-off for the new batch of electric cars coming out staring in 2010, when we will possiobly see the GM Volt, which is going to be an awesome, affordable car with this kind of tax plan.
We need to say goodbye to nafta, cafta, gatt and wto, and start taxing the hell out of any corporations that move production outside of the USA and start prosecuting and putting the banksters in jail that print and distribute fraudulant Fiat money.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I wonder how much money they spend lobbying congress ...Ya know this is all about corporations reverting and re-establishing themselves as global players, didn't GM just move to Russia ? meanwhile the only thing keeping corporations in America paying a living wage with benefits, is a union that's in bed with the government..
All we really need to do is STOP paying federal taxes.
Calgon, Take Me Away !! LMAO
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Agar, I completely agree with all you say, but it’s also a question of being between a rock and a hard place (or giving in to corporate blackmail, again!)
October saw the biggest drop in consumer spending on record (prices in fact dropped, raising the specter of deflation), whereas the rest of the world is also slipping onto recession. Things look grimmer by the day.
One in ten jobs relies directly on the auto industry. Allowing them to go bust would have a devastating impact on the rest of the economy.
I loath the very idea, but as things stand can we afford not to bail them out?
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I say let the auto-makers file for bankruptcy. Right now they are just not competitive and produce the wrong product and a bail-out will merely buy time.
The idea that filing for bankruptcy equates to these companies disappearing is just not accurate. They would reorganize under Chapter 11 and end up with restructured organizations. The only issue that argues against this is the impact on the consumer who would be reluctant to purchase their cars if they knew a bankruptcy was likely and the answer there would be for the Feds to get involved in ensuring that warranties would be honored as part of any reorganization.
A bail-out is throwing good money after bad unless there is a fundamental restructuring of the corporations - which includes lowering labor costs.
The average consumer has a schizophrenic attitude when it comes to the moving of jobs overseas. Yes, we all decry the jobs that have been lost - including our manufacturing base. But we all want our consumer products cheap and these are not mutually compatible. We cannot price consumer products manufactured in the US at prices based on overseas manufacturing because the labor costs in China, India, etc are a fraction of what we pay workers here.
We cannot have our cake and eat it!
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
These CEOs were/are Incentivized by the Banksters, the Israeli Dual Citizens & their Lackey Sellouts, Through the Unconstitutional US Tax Code, TO move their jobs overseas. Wall Street & majority Shareholders, corrupt the system by rewarding high Earnings (PE) profits at Any cost, fictional or nonfictional, and these clueless CEOs, today with hat in hand, reaped these outrageous salaries as a result. This same Tax code is brought to you by an illegal Federal Reserve.
And the US Congress Critters here, do Nothing to protect US jobs leaving and having to compete with child & slave labor in China, making $10 a day, 7 days a week.
This is ALL by design. World government, Religion & Currency. All thats required is to collapse the existing system to bring it about. Youre seeing that now. This is not happenstance or a coincidence, but an Engineered event. Youre only seeing the beginning, just wait until the main performance..
AIG offered nothing to we the people, nor did the other Wall Street firms who stole from the US treasury courtesy of Israeli Dual Citizens: Bernanke & Paulson.
Wal Mart has Destroyed 100,000 USA Mom & Pop businesses, defer local taxes for decades & use illegals to build the stores, who further tax the US social systems with their Illegal families when brought here: (Schools, hospitals, prisons) while the Illegal workers drive down US Labor costs or steal US jobs.
If one would like to see how Wal Mart works, & the Destruction from Wal Mart, here is a good expose into it.
"A leading critic of AIG today demanded the company's CEO resign in the wake of the disclosure of yet another "Junket" at a resort spa. In a letter to AIG's CEO Edward Liddy, Congressman Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) said the decision to hold an event for independent financial advisors last week at a luxury Phoenix resort was "outrageous" given an earlier pledge by Liddy to curtail such events. "
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
If the cake comes from China, we don't want to eat it! That is one very good reason to buy US.
Preston,
I don't like your idea to create incentives to lower prices on undesirable cars, instead we should create incentives to lower prices on desirable cars. It is the fat cat unions who have insisted on making our workers slow or lazy and too expensive to compete in a global market.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
There are Tariffs Imposed on US goods in China, Japan and those we trade with, yet we dont impose the same protectionist tariffs here on their goods, & we allow them to build production facilities HERE.
The US Can compete globally, with some changes mind you, but the Banksters want to destroy The US Manufacturing & Production sector.
Yes, Unions have outlived their usefulness, but they brought us the 40 hour work week, safety & Child protection laws, Pension & Healthcare. Thaey are now in some ways, part of the problem but not THE Problem.
We already have a solar powered electric car developed by GM & Toyota a decade ago. The Electric Toyota RAV 4 is still on the road today. The product was bought by Chevron and the car was Killed, this back in the late 90s and early 2000 models. 80mph and 300 miles per charge. Done, Dead, Killed.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
David Edwards and Muriel Kane Raw Story
Wednesday, Nov 19, 2008
The Bush administration has already handed out almost half of the $700 billion in bank bailout money authorized by Congress but has not even filled the mandated oversight positions to review how it is being used. Naomi Klein, author of The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, has described the handling of the bailout as "borderline criminal" because of this and other problems. Klein spoke to Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! on Monday to explain her accusations.
"We were all reassured that there was going to be transparency, accountability, legality," Klein stated. "But now we’re finding out that, in fact, Henry Paulson has achieved his original goal by stealth, because there is no accountability, and lawmakers are very hesitant to challenge this. … Essentially, what the Bush administration has done is said, ‘We dare you to challenge us and be responsible for the Great Depression.’ Klein sees 3 areas of borderline illegality.
The first is that rather than being used to get banks lending again, the bailout money "is instead going to bonuses, is instead going to dividends, going to salaries, going to mergers."
The 2nd is that, without Congressional authorization, "the Treasury Department pushed through a tax windfall for the banks, a piece of legislation that allows the banks to save a huge amount of money when they merge with each other. And the estimate is that this represents a loss of $140 billion worth of tax revenue for the US government."
The 3rd problem, which dwarfs the $700 billion bailout itself, is that "there’s another $2 trillion that’s been handed out by the Federal Reserve in emergency loans to financial institutions, to banks, that actually we don’t really know who they’re handing the money out to, because, apparently, it’s a secret."
"If the Fed has accepted distressed assets as collateral in exchange for these loans," stated Klein, "there’s a very good chance the taxpayers aren’t going to be getting this money back. … So that’s why we’re calling this the ‘trillion-dollar crime scene’ or the ‘multi-trillion-dollar crime scene.’"
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
i think the car companys and the oil companys are in bed with each other .they lowered gas prices long enough to get those suv's off the lots and into your drive ways again.then bingo up goes the gas price.we may be duped into it.time will tell.and ugly dog your way over the top on the jews.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
They are a big problem when your fellow workers want you to slow down, so the other slower guys don't look bad. Nothing nonsensical about that. I don't debate the good things unions did bring about originally, but they are into self-perpetuation and are not making the US manufacturing worker the benchmark of the world. Keep those dues rolling.
Outsourcing has become the culprit to the US manufacturing demise. High-tech, skilled mfg. jobs with a decent wage are becoming obsolete, and they are/were the building blocks of the US middle class.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
The economy, run by an Unconstitutional Federal Reserve, Banksters & Wall Street, is THE Problem!
And Wazzup, I never said 'Jews' you race baiter, you did. I said Israeli Dual Citizens, which they are by birthright. I have all of their titles at the Federal Reserve and you see the Israeli Stock market captioned above. I m happy to list the owners of the Fed Reserve & Officers. Billions of dollars & Money has been trasferred ie stolen from the USA to Israel..fact
--------------------------------------
Weak dollar costs U.S. economy its No. 1 spot
Reuters, Mar 14, 2008
The U.S. economy lost the title of "world's biggest" to the euro zone this week.
"The curious outcome of breaching this latest milestone is that the size of the euro zone's annual output has now exceeded that of the U.S.," the economics department of Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street investment bank, said in a note to clients."
Bush's "legacy" will have been the destruction of Iraq & Afghanistan, the US economy & Dollar
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
The "banksters" didn't design the gas guzzlers sitting unsold on the car lots. The "banksters" didn't outsource good high paying tech jobs. And if you don't think the unions help to price up the labor force without the output, that is your choice.
Give me a stylish, fuel-efficient hybrid SUV, priced reasonably for the average consumer, and build it in the US, and I want it yesterday. That's all I ask. Who's doing that?
And yes, CEO's don't deserve their outrageous salaries, benefits and perks, for failing in their business. It is probably true about every politician you meet as well.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
No, but they are in cahoots with the oil companies who KILLED the electric EVO ie Toyota Rav 4
And Feds alone SET Monetary policy which Controls the economy..inflation, deflation, interest rates, money supply etc at will
Back in the late 90s, GM developed a working and running full electric car, known as the EV-1, hundreds of cars were initially sold to happy customers under lease plans, however after strong lobbying by oil companies, all but one EV-1 was repossessed and crushed!
The EV1 could accelerate from 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in the eight-second range and from 0–50 mph (0–80 km/h) in 6.3 seconds.[24] The car's top speed was electronically limited to 80 mph (130 km/h). At the time the EV1 (with lead acid batteries) was the only electric car produced which met all EV America performance goals of the United States Department of Energy.[25]
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
HEADLINES ON FOX NEW DESK A FEW AGO.. A LISTENER EMAIL IN AND SAID...WE ALL HOPE TOYOTA BUYS OUT GM...AND SHOWS HOW CARS CAN BE PRODUCED.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,DO ANY OF YOU THINK THIS WILL BE WHAT HAPPENS?
OH GREAT, NOW THE GREAT NEWS FOR WHEREVER THE 8 YEAR OLD BOY WHO SHOT AND KILLED HIS FATHER IN COLD BLOOD, lives,...THEY JUST RELEASED HIM /
HE IS GOING HOME. O'Reilly had a physcologist on his show last night that clearly stated this boy should never be released into the public, as his testing , after he admitted to the killing of his father, was in the reahlm of insanity. Should be declared insane and can't stand trial , and put in a rehabilitation center for 10 years and then tested as to his insanity. Trialing him as an adult will accomplish nothing..Today he is free.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
funny thing about that boy,he seemed so innocent and sweet.how could two grown men allow a small boy to keep reloading and firing.? it was a single shot 22. the world is amuke no doubt about it. we need to fix it..
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
if the auto makers want a hand out let them ask the oil companies (who i believe are once again reporting record profits in a time of crisis) not the taxpayers. personally i think it might be the best thing if “the big three” do go out of business than maybe they & the oil indust. would no longer have a stranglehold on the transportation industry.
on the broader issue:
i don't care about the race, religion or whatever of the people with the top jobs at the fed res.; it's wholly beside the point. the institution is the problem regardless of who is running it and it is our problem to solve. uglydog you can couch the problem in whatever language you choose but to date the net effect, from what i’ve gleaned, is most people simply are not hearing you. the end result is you silence your own voice by too often making the side issue a central point. it is like discussing the color of a faulty building instead of focusing solely on it's structural defects. i'm not saying you're wrong or you don't understand what the real core problems are, i honestly believe you possess a wealth of knowledge that others would benefit from, but your language is muddying the waters. if you would dislodge from the rhetoric and stick to the real point - the structural defects - you might have a profound effect on this huge huge problem we are facing.
the thing is we must remember that history has proven as fact that anyone can become corrupt, and any group can create a corrupt institution, so what if it's zionists, nazis, stalinist, communists, fascist, terrorists, fundamentalist ... bottom line the "...ist" is irrelevant. the question we need to focus on is now that this corrupt institution - the fed res and it’s unconstitutional and government supported policies - is in place and generations have been raised under it's watchful eye how do we move forward and dismantle it? then we need to ask: what do we set up to replace it? how can each person contribute to the creation or reinstitution of a legal/monetary system that is just? these questions need to be addressed if we any hope of actually effecting a real change and they have nothing to do with the attributes of those who are running this corrupt institution. - jmo
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-Thomas Jefferson
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Henry Ford
Money creation, interest, debt.... these are the powers of the world. Not guns, or armies, or business. Interest rules our world.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
regarding the 8 yr murder suspect - last i heard he was being released to his mother for 48 hrs next week for thanksgiving but that may have changed. also this boy called the police to report the crime and at first denied killing them then admitting it without parent, guardian or legal consul present, so imo it's too hard to say what the truth is when in the past many children have been manipulated by 'authorities' and ended up recanted their confessions.
i say we need to stay true to the believe of "innocent until proven guilty". plus i don't believe that those of us who are getting our info solely via the media are in any real position to know what is really happening here. the psychologist on fox could not be the boy's because it would be illegal for him to talk about the case for 2 reasons - professional ethics prohibit breeching the client's right to privacy and the court would not allow the case to be discussed by those directly involved with the investigation while it is on-going. so this guy's opinion might be 'expert' but he could not possibly have first hand knowledge of the case unless of course he is breaking the law. i say wait for all the facts to come out before judging; and right now all we have is a lot of emotion and a lot of opinions with very little fact.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
You know the economy’s bad when debt collectors can’t pay their bills.
First American Recovery Services in Amherst, the owner of $500 million in overdue accounts, has filed for bankruptcy, blaming a slowdown in payments from debtors.
“Consumers are really struggling,” company President Mark F. Bohn said.
The company and three affiliates filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in U. S. Bankruptcy Court in Buffalo this month, reporting debts of up to $50 million.
A bad economy might seem like a good time for bill collectors, but it turns out to be more complicated than that. The industry depends partly on payments for old bills — a low priority in many households, now that prices for necessities are high and good jobs are hard to find.
So collectors in Buffalo and across the country are feeling consumers’ pain.
“It’s getting harder and harder to collect, because people simply don’t have the money,” said John Nemo, spokesman for the industry association ACA International in Minneapolis.
At First American, much of the company’s revenue comes from monthly payment plans designed to wipe out debts over time, Bohn said..................
i have spent my life avoiding government and money systems but now i have kids and i homeschool and i want them to choose for themselves how they engage the world so they need a much boarder understand of the world they live in than i am able to give. so i have found myself teaching civics to both them and me:) i found a great set of books by raymond maybury - uncle eric series, which i recommend to those like me who are truly ignorant on the subject. it's certainly not the whole picture but i find it is a good jumping off point - well anyway my kids and i are learning a lot from this series of books
one very curious points "uncle eric" made that i've been wanting to ask people here, who have vast knowledge in this area - law & money: isn't our present money system unconstitutional? i ask this because in the constitution it says:
Article One Section 10, Clause 1 (Contracts Clause): No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
now i don't always understand the wording of the constitution as clearly as i would like but this passage seems to say that gold and silver are the only legal form of currency. yet on the dollar bill it says "this note is legal tender" dispite the fact that it has no relationship, direct or indirect, with gold or silver but you can go to jail if you refuse to accept it as payment. that seem unconstitutional, isn't it? because of this clause could we sue to reinstate the far more stable monetary system of gold & silver?
another aspect that i'm unclear about is: who is printing our "legal tender" - i do understand that printing more of this' baseless' tender is the cause of the cycle of inflation, rising prices, and recession/depression - but who decides when more is printed and how much new baseless tender is put into circulation ... who is calling the shots regarding the amount of money in circulation? is it the fed res, the pres ... a joint effect of gov & fed res? - tia
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
so maybe approaching this via the courts might be a step in the right direction? also since it is unconstitutional why hasn't anyone brought this to the courts already? or have they?
we had a case against the lumber industry thrown out by a district judge on summary judgment on grounds we were not even suing over. so i know the courts system is corrupt as well. in our case the unspoken reason was if won, which has highly likely, our case would make the lumber industry vulnerable to similar claims; and since the lumber industry is such a major player in our economic system it could potentially cripple the us economy. so to protect the economy we protect the pillar industries regardless of their policies. now i can appreciate the fears here but this in conjunction with the whole llc* (limited liability corp.) model are destroy our market system. so now that our system is proven to be clearly unhealthy and is already wobbling under it's many bad decisions wouldn't it be a good time to attack the unconstitutionality of it? it seems the public would be very receptive to it now that we are paying the huge price for living and seemingly benefiting from this unconstitutional system.
* one thing about the llc i am not against them but i am against large corps hiding behind them i beleive they can be used very effectively, but llc statis is being abused. i actually am a member of a small local llc that all memebers enter into only after knowing all the risks. this is not the case with large llc they put on the market products that are risky for the consummers without ever informing us that we are "buying at our own risk"
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I think by printing the words "legal tender for all debts public and private" it must have made the law books further down the line. Also, strictly speaking, the states weren't allowed those activities, but it does not say the federal government doesn't have the right? More than a few souls have tried to prove IRS taxes are unconstitutional and they always seem to end up in jail.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
i wasn't really talking about taxes though that is another important issue; i was strickly speak of the currency we are presently using. but are you by chance saying the irs prints this "legal tender"? if not them who? who decides how much is printed and when?
this is my understanding of laws: any law can be passed but it doesn't mean it's constitutional; we must abide by any law until it is proven unconstitutional and removed from the 'books' or we are practicing civil disobedience; any law can be overturned, but the only way to overturn a law is to prove it is unconstitutional, so it's constitutionality needs to be challengeged and this must happen before the supreme court (state or fed depending on the origin and scope of the law - state law, fed law) where the supreme court judges measure it against the constitution (again state or fed though the constitutionality of any state law can be challenged in fed court). so the constitutionality of any law that is 'down stream' of the constitution can be challenged in the supreme court provided it gets before them, which seems to be a mighty large feat indeed.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Very good post, KTF – particularly Chapter 11 explanation.
And of course if auto-makers receive financial support you’ll only end up with a host of other corporations also putting out the begging-bowl. My problem is with the timing – the economy right now already looks as if it might any day fall of a cliff! Not a decision I’d want to have to make!
During early days of Great Depression the general mantra basically amounted to allowing major institutions etc to go bust, and to subsequently rebuild from scratch (in fact, some Fed representatives categorically said as much). Trouble is, this rebuilding inevitably involves massive costs as well.
“The average consumer has a schizophrenic attitude when it comes to the moving of jobs overseas. Yes, we all decry the jobs that have been lost - including our manufacturing base. But we all want our consumer products cheap and these are not mutually compatible. We cannot price consumer products manufactured in the US at prices based on overseas manufacturing because the labor costs in China, India, etc are a fraction of what we pay workers here. We cannot have our cake and eat it!”
The problem here is that China has an almost inexhaustible reserve of dirt-cheap labor and enjoys, or will do so in the future, mammoth economies of scale. Will the West be forced to endure ever-lower wages, and thus living standard, in order to maintain some sort of equal competitive footing? Some Chinese products are already priced at a level below American direct material cost! And of course exporting jobs offshore must entail some degree of reduced domestic consumer spending power. Maybe ‘what’s good for the goose isn’t necessarily good for the gander’ comes here into play again?!
You and I could probably pen a long essay on this alone!
I don’t think the problem lies so much with printing ‘legal tender’ bank notes, justcurious, as credit creation.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
The US Treasury (specifically, the Bureau of Engraving & Printing) prints the paper currency. The US Mint (another US Treasury bureau) makes the coins. The IRS is another bureau of the US Treasury.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
uglydog thanks for that link! that clears things up a bit for me - so the part of the constitution i posted is directed solely at the states saying the states don't have the right to create legal tender but in another clause in this same article it says the congress does this right. also the congress has the power to contract out this right to create legal tender, which they have done with the fed res. so now the fed res handles the creation of legal tender, as a sort of proxy's proxy (congress represents the people and the fed res represents the congress) and the fed res has declared our current money "legal tender". so the congress has given control of this to the fed res which is their right to do under the constitution. which means, if i'm understanding this correctly, if we are unhappy with the money system, we need to appeal to the congress to re-negotiate it's contract with the fed res. or read the contract between the gov & the fed res to see if the fed res is in breech of contract or not; beyond that we're stuck with the fed res?
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
ok a lot of economics is way over my head but i'm a relatively practical person and it seems to me it all comes down to goods and services. if we are printing more money then we can back with our goods and services we begin to spiral into the zone of the unethical so to pull ourselves out we need to create more industry (like alternative fuels) to support the currency already floating around after all it does have to represent something doesn't it? ok i'll go back to just reading and stop annoying you guys with my sophomoric perspective thanks for your patience.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Chisum, I believe what is needed is for a clear statement of intent by Obama, Pelosi and Reid that they will not allow the auto-makers to go into liquidation. They will either restructure without going into Chapter 11 or the Feds will provide the necessary financial backing in conjunction with restructuring after filing for Chapter 11.
What is needed is some assurance from the Federal government that the auto companies will not disappear provided steps are taken to ensure their future viability after restructuring. Without substantial restructuring, no bail-out money should be given to the companies. I also believe the senior management of these companies should be replaced - it is the price they should have to pay for what has happened to the companies they head. There has to be some accountability in conjunction with employees making financial sacrifices.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I dont disagreee but the Union Leadership was also infiltraded by Marxist Communists back when
I say just give $25 Billion from the $700Billion, stolen for the Investment Banksters that Ben Shalom Bernanke & Paulson threatened with..and ask the Big 3 to make concessions of course.
Why do we give the Zionist Wall Street Gangsters, I mean Bankster, $700B-$1 Trillion, but 3 million factory workers cant get 2.5% of that?
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
uglydog what country would you like to live in ?as this one does not work for you ? you are the most prejudice person i know on this American soil. I'm beginning to think you are a terrorist plant from one faction or the other.really where the heck do you want to live ?and if it's here then why didn't you run for the presidency and show us who you really are?you are a racist son of a gun.a smart one at that ,but still a racist
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
By the way I do think we need to bail the auto industry(better than the banks at least some of the jobs are for regular folks) BUT we need to negotiate hard and long re the deal.
We also ALL need to start buying American again if we want this country to survive.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I went on record on another thread opposing the $700 billion bail-out when it was under consideration. I felt that it was ill-considered and put together without any hearings as to what the best approach would be to deal with the credit crisis. I am still shocked at the way a vast sum of money was approved through scare-mongering - and no sooner was it approved then the intended use was changed.
Ugly, I am interested in your read of where there is decent support on the DJIA. I looked at the chart and I see some support around 7440 and thereafter there is little support until around 6500.
Do you agree?
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Wal Mart has Headquartered their entire Purchasing Department in China, (beetree). They also OWN many Western US Ports.
Wazzup-If you wish to discuss Rascism, start with Israel. Laws & Policies on the Books of JEW ONLY Roads, Schools, Marriages, Housing & License Plates. aka Apartheid. Whos the Rascist again?
How about this headline of Jews being warned to stop spitting on Christians in Israe, by their Interior Minister?http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=487412
KTF...Youre trying to catch a falling knife. Support at 6500, then 5000, then 4000. I think we go to 4,000 before a total possible collapse whereby the US Dollar is de monetized. As in worthless. I own no US equities at this point.
Pension, Hedge Funds are restricted from owning $5 stocks. Citi, 5/3 other banks are trading at/below these levels so look out. Another bail out is coming. Not. FDIC is also broke. Sorry to be the messenger of bad news but it is, what it is.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Ugly, I think you misunderstood me, I asked what production facilities does China have in the US? Not what (facilities) the US has in China, which by the way, purchasing is not production. Whole different labor force involved either way, to make my point. I don't think there are any! It just doesn't make sense for them.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
oh great one ugly dog can you show us mere mortals the way to peace on earth.you are in fact not human, you may be a computer robot spewing words of gloom-doom and hopelessness ... not American for sure.i hope they out you. your mean and vindictive.do you write or subscribe to underground newspapers.either way you will be found out .yup all for free speech here ,,but you cross all levels of human decency.you should be hung for treason.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
I am taking positions very gradually - like I said it would take me 18 months to invest the funds that I have in mind for equities. Most of our funds are in fixed income securities which have actually gone up marginally compared to the last quarter end.
But I do agree with you that at this point it is akin to catching a falling knife. I was checking out the prices of stocks that I have owned or traded in days gone by and many have been devastated. It is truly stunning.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Waz, ugly has committed no treason. He has expressed opinions in a free country and has not printed phony fiat currency and defrauded the citizenry through constantly inflated fiat money supply, resultant inflation and loss of value accompanying it for all citizen consumers. If you don't agree with him fine, but he has a right to express himself just like you. And ugly does know his history very well, plus he has deep knowledge about wall street and the investment world. That's a fact, jack.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Wazzup-Truth isnt polite.You call what I think hate speech because you hate the truth.
Those are LAWS in Israel, I point them out and you call me a 'hater' and tell me that is treasonous. If you want to try to put a rope around my neck, PM me, you can try, I'll have the Coroners number handy after dealing with you..
In case youve not noticed, the wealth of the US has been plundered, stolen by the Banketers. This is a fact. This is by design. This isnt gloom and doom, but a Reality to those not living in fairytale land.
China is a Communist, Souless, Godless nation. It has no Manufacturing facilities outside of its own Godless nation, because it isnt beneficial. They dont need prodocution out of their borders. They allow child & Slave labor and have financed the US War debacle in Iraq. Now that our dollar is worthless, things will change very soon for AmeriKa & China..
12,000 year old civilizations arent stupid. They are using this period to build up their Own infrastructure & Manufacturing facilities. Having them based overseas does nothing to help them achieve their goals, WHEN the US collapses. Noticed I said, when not if. They will sustain themselves in other markets and their own once we cease importing their junk.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Here's a short video clip and story about Senator James Inhofe about the "Bailout" he refused to vote for but passed anyway. They have already given out over 4 trillion dollars based on the fine print and won't tell where 2 trillion went (they say it is a secret). What about all this openness and Congressional oversight that was promised???
And Ugly if you don't mind, while your at it, which US ports does China own? Never heard that one before, though I have heard of the idea of selling them to the Arabs. I actually must admit, something in me cringes when I think of the parceling off of America to the highest international bidder. When the Brits bought our water supply, I felt chagrined because I can't justify or understand it.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
KTF...as you well know, we are in a Bear Market, soon to be announced recession, depression.
Quit trying to fight the trend-whether 50/100 day moving averages or any oversold conditions on an Oscillator . SHORT Rallies! Youll make alot more money and its far easier. You can stab by scaling in buying, but its a not looking good long term or short term.
Theres soon to be little production and sales in this country. Every sector is decimated, save a few. And what is not, will be very soon. Just my advice.
Take a 1-2-3 setup and short it. Youll make money. Im done every day by noon doing this.
Preston-Interview with Special Forces John Moore & John Stadtmiller of Republic Broadcasting. The Largest Army CALL UP since 1941 has just taken place, Larger than Korea, Vietnam. Something big is brewing. Letters have gone out to all Retired Officers in the Military. Research it.. or listen to the audio on Republic from November 17
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
no uglydog i love the truth i may not be as smart with drawing a sentence out to say more then it does ,i do know the truth.it is a mess .i know china is communist ,i try real hard not to by there products.they hide the marketing of products very well.i know there is a hidden scam within all big countries to keep us all happy and believing.I'm just not willing to blame it on any one group in particular.and spewing hate to other countries and trying to pit us against each other ,will only further your cause to alienate of further against each other. i think that is your logic.and preston i think your uglydogs alter ego.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Adam Davidson: There are about 15 Major ports in the US.A. Each is divided into a handful of separately operated terminals. That makes roughly 100 terminals. SSA Marine is the single biggest US-owned terminal operator.
Bud Waters: We operate seven of those terminals.
Davidson: Bud Waters is SSA Vice President. And let me repeat what he just said. The biggest US-owned terminal operator manages seven terminals. The next biggest? That's Maher Terminals in Elizabeth, NJ -- they manage one terminal. Waters says about a dozen are managed by city or state governments.
Waters: Other than that, the rest of the terminals, which comprises about 80% of those terminals we're talking about, are operated by Foreign entities, primarily shipping lines.
Davidson: So -- US companies have 8! Foreign companies have 80! Companies managing US terminals are all over the world -- in China, Denmark, Singapore, South Korea. Could SSA Marine, the nation's biggest terminal manager, take over a significant number of those foreign-managed ports?
Waters: [laughing] Well, it'd be an interesting challenge!
Davidson: It wouldn't be a challenge, says Peter Tirschwell, publisher of the Journal of Commerce. It would be nearly impossible.
Peter Tirschwell: It would be an extraordinary upheaval, so large that it would be difficult to even contemplate it.
Davidson: Imagine that Congress does mandate that only US companies can operate terminals in US ports, Tirschwell says. There would be two options and neither is good. The first is for the handful of existing US companies to take over all foreign-owned terminals. That, he says, is simply inconceivable. These companies would have to instantly grow to ten times their current size. The other option is for US companies in other industries to start offering terminal operation services. That's equally hard to imagine, Tirschwell says.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Most of the terminals at America's major ports are already foreign-owned, according to a senior official with the largest U.S.-owned ports operator, SSA Marine.
In an interview with National Public Radio on Sunday, SSA Vice President Bob Waters explained that there are 15 major ports in the U.S., comprising about 100 terminals.
We operate seven of those terminals," he said, adding that the next biggest American ports operator, Maher Terminals, manages one terminal.
A dozen additi
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
Ugly, thanks for the heads up. I know that VP elect Senator Joe Biden has told several crowds that a major world crisis brewing and will erupt soon after the new adminsitration takes over as a test. He also claimed that the new administration will have to institute some difficult things that will be hard for the people to accept, and will be asking everyone to give them support through the difficulties involved.
Some think that there will be a major attack against Iran which will set off a limited nuclear exchange in the middle east, Pakistan, India, and Syria and even perhaps start WWIII. Whenever any country's economy shifts into a weimar style monetyary situation, war usually results. Our monetary base has gone from 875 billion to 1275 billion in the last 90 days according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis (listed under it's section of U.S. Financial Data as updated 11-13-08).
For those of you who have any faith, please pray that God will help us all through this in one piece and keep us all safe from harm, in the coming months. Ugly, please PM me if you get any more heads up info. Thanks.
So Ironic---Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money
if they drop the nuke it doesn't much matter after that.if the economy takes a bigger nose dive .we are armed heavily in our private sector .we can hunt ,garden and spear some for the neighbors .i know our little community is very heavily armed and well stocked.most inner cities have some very good gangbangers that will not quit.and don't forget i had a chat with MR.LIDDY so i know whats up.and whats not!
Think deep recession likely regardless of Fed's actions
April 2007 http://www.wisebread.com/europe-has-the-euro-are-you-ready-for-the-amero "Unless, of course, the ultimate goal is to create “corporatism” – the merger of big business with big government " As Tom DeWeese wrote in his article for the American Policy Center, “The SPP is not about free trade. Its use of public/private partnerships creates an elite of certain, chosen global corporations which basically become part of government at the expense of their competition and our national independence.”
January 2008 http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7854 In discussing the issue of sovereignty related to a monetary union, Grubel stated that he thinks that, “sovereignty is not infinitely valuable. The merit of giving up some aspects of sovereignty should be determined by the gains brought by such a sacrifice.”
October 2008 http://www.opednews.com/articles/BANKERS-SAY-Learn-to-Love-by-Patrick-Henningsen-081006-534.htmlBut if you had a bird’s eye view of events since 2000, then you will have seen a lot more than that- you will have witnessed the devaluation of the US Dollar by nearly 70%. During this period, the Federal Reserve Bank repeatedly printed large sums of money and pumped it into the system, further devaluing our nation's Fiat currency beyond recognition......America could soon gain painful first experience- the same pain it has often induced in countries like Argentina, Mexico, Germany and Brazil... hyper-inflation. As a part of a 'relief package', the “Amero”- the ultimate financial instrument, will be presented as a pre-packaged panacea or 'rescue' by our saviours- the bankers. ...As we've seen recently, foreign interests will continue to scoop up both state and private assets, all at rock bottom prices. .... Millions of remaining jobs will scatter with the four winds. - BE SURE TO READ ALL THREE PAGES AND CONSIDER USING THEIR autom
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Awesome. No really. I'm in awe. At the very moment GM NA's cash flow has gone bye-bye (thanks to union strikes at American Axle and GM factories), just days before the automaker gives the world the gory details of its American cash conflagration, the General reveals that it's bumped-up– sorry, "restored" its top suit's salary. CEO Rick Wagoner's paycheck returns to its 2003 - 2006 levels, from the "reduced" $1.65m back to $2.2m. But don't get to feeling what the Hell, it's only a $570k jump, and it WAS his old salary. Automotive News reports that Rick's TOTAL compensation for '07 was $14.4m, or $39,452.05 per day (including weekends). Meanwhile, Car Czar "Maximum" Bob Lutz gets a nice little "thank you" for winning TTAC's Bob Lutz Award: a base salary "boost" from $1.3m p.a. to $1.75m (so much for "I gave at the office"). MB's total compensation for '07: $6.9m. Newly promoted GM COO (from CFO) Fritz Henderson gets $1.8m; total pay package $7.6m. Friends of GM are free to defend this pay-out (supply - demand), but I find the fact that these guys are raking in MORE money as 32 GM factories are off-line, as GM struggles for its survival, appalling. But you knew that…
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