Sportism - Page 11

Duke: "...also the other way around, what is a better dog, a KNPV trained, IPO trained or police dog trained,
makes no difference as it is about the individual dog "

Yes, Duke, almost all of them are trained in any kind of sport, it´s about the individual dog and its temperament...( the police units over here, breeding and raising their own stock, do weed out a lot of dogs...)

I am not against Prager´s idea to train puppies for PP immediately, but his kind of training won´t work.

Joan, at the end it´s about the result, not about the way to reach the goal. I haven´t seen 2 similar dogs yet, you need to train, and you need to learn with every dog you handle, there is no "I know how to do it" - every dog is unique, and you need to think about the training every day...

Susie cant agree with you more that that wont work,but some will swallow it

you can only shape and train with what is there to begin with, you can train a dog without civil/agression for decades without bitingequipment, but he will never workfor real

Susie~ '... at the end it´s about the result, not about the way to reach the goal. I haven´t seen 2 similar dogs yet, you need to train, and you need to learn with every dog you handle, there is no "I know how to do it" -


'...every dog is unique, and you need to think about the training every day...' ~ Susie

^^^^ could not agree more.

Considering no criminals walks around in sleeves or suits what does it matter how a dog is started, the majority of dogs in police are trained on hidden equipment and so on before they are ready to work for real anyway, if they don´t know what to do when a sleeve or suit is not around it ends there anyway.

There have been instances (some internationally televised as Police dog fails) when the subject slips their jacket the dog is biting, and the dog stays with the jacket. Or the subject throws a bag or whatever they have in their hands when they see the dog running at them... and the dog goes after it. Man targeting over equipment (or objects that the dog may perceive as equipment) is important.

These may be dogs when given no other option may have no problem biting the man without visible equipment.

But depriving them from seeing, working on or ever possessing equipment is not the answer IMO.

 

A good dog don,t care about sleeve, suit or civlll its about the intention
from the dog to bite, I read a lot of nonsense here about equipment what do you think
about LE decoys do you think they train allways civil ?ofcourse not a good dog can switch in one second from sleeve,suit to civil its about the trainers and handlers here
who think too difficult.Quality dogs need quality trainers if the handler or trainer sucks
in his training most people blame it on the dogs thats the sad part.

There are much more good quality  dogs  than good trainers  !!!

 

At last someone speeking sense. BM good post .if your dog can't switch in a matter of seconds when the need is called for well the keep your dog for sports because he is no good for PP.

Ok well I watched several Alpine K9 videos provided on other threads and need to comment.

Here is the thing. After your "initial civil test" where the dog sees the bitesuit for the first time. After that (by watching your videos) you continue training on the suit jacket. You are still slipping the jacket, so after that very first time that jacket becomes equipment and the dog knows it. You just don't let them possess it for long or carry it. But it's still visible equipment, then the decoy plays brief tug with the dog before letting it go....that, even though you don't let them possess it for long the dog can still develop a desire to covet it, especially if they find the decoy to be a source of stress. I have seen old school trained dogs if given a choice between equipment and decoy without equipment will "avoid" into the equipment even if the decoy stings them with a stick because of stress...and not because they had a sport foundation.

If you slip the jacket then what is the difference then between starting right on the jacket or starting on a sleeve? It's just different size piece of equipment at that point...and is still considered their "foundation phase" since they are learning to bite. Maybe i'm missing something. You don't agree with a foundation where the dog starts on a bite pillow progressing to a sleeve and is allowed to possess it in order to develop grip and confidence. But it's ok to teach them to bite with their front teeth on a jacket...sometimes coming off...then slip it to them?

Here is my thing, I can see you "testing" dogs natural civility as you described a few pages ago in order to choose dogs you find worthy. But, If you are agitating an untrained dog in this "default building" stage you are pushing into defense to stimulate aggression. This is not what I'd do since their first exposure to protection work cuts into their confidence by making them insecure regarding self preservation... but fine, I admit its functional, it's how dogs were trained for decades, and by repetition they can gain satisfactory confidence in the work.

The fastest or most reliable path to civility is not necessarily only through defense. I prefer to start with prey but also introduce defense pretty early but after the dog is confident in his grip and desire to bite is high, defense is introduced and civility is evaluated through prey guarding. If a dog is naturally civil this will take very little from the decoy and will be very easy to see, if the dog lacks civility it will be very hard (there is my civil test). And for the most part you don't make the dog insecure through self preservation before the dog is confident and knows how to fight... you aren't threatening the dog itself you threaten to steal his prey.

We for the most part are talking about the same types of dogs Hans...except I can work with less civil dogs (only provided their prey drive is intense). And I believe I can train both dogs to a higher level of confidence (higher thresholds) with better grips who will bite with or without equipment... without making them equipment fixed or dependent.

Someone said what does it matter what drive the dog is being civil in...My answer: because prey drive is a forward drive, defense drive is inherently insecure, uncomfortable and lacks confidence. A canine hunts and kills in prey, he scares off bears in defense. So how do you want your dog to mentally perceive a decoy/assailant/attacker (type of person he's trained or commanded to bite)? To a suspicious person in the park do you want him to think "stay away or I'll bite" and let go right away hoping that bite was good enough to make you run away....or do you want him to stare at him thinking "get over here i'm going to kick your ass and eat you. Prey in strong levels is a very serious intense drive and it is a Pro-active drive.  Defense is a re-active drive. Prey is NOT NOT NOT the same as play drive. Yes dog must learn to function with confidence in both drives. A good well trained dog will transition between drives smoothly, defense may cause him stress but prey releases that stress, but grip should never waiver.

Hans I would like to see a working video of one of your finished dogs.

I will put myself out there and show some of my training videos. And before someone says something they are NOT "civil training" videos, they are PSA training videos. The video is of a dog on a suit....just like Han's videos. They were trained to bite the bicep on the front and tricep on the back, or forearm if that's closest. They will be introduced to legs also or have been but their primary target is upper body. Hank is a dog I trained (as decoy) from a puppy, is is his handlers first working dog. Please be respectful unless you want to show a video of you doing it better.

Hank ..brief video of puppy foundation: https://www.facebook.com/melanie.howe.77/videos/10201821485163349/?l=7258054023694530774
Hank 15 months on hidden sleeve: https://www.facebook.com/melanie.howe.77/videos/10203621199835091/?l=2297566644349443914
Hank 2 yrs old: https://www.facebook.com/melanie.howe.77/videos/10205536617759342/?l=7886192606836654932
https://www.facebook.com/melanie.howe.77/videos/10205851321866748/?l=1712968465752648458
 

My point in the beginning with evaluating your start to training (it may not be clear) was that even with your "non-sport foundation"...which is STILL a little "sport" because the equipment is still visible, play tugged then slipped. A great dog who has intense prey will still covet the equipment (unless a talented decoy...not a newb in a suit... trains him to man target).
 

Hi GSDFan,
I am sure know one will be disrespectful, you have clearly stated this series of vids are not civil, for me they show an excellent committed dog who knows what he is doing.

Have you proofed Hank off the suit?

Regards
Gee