Sportism - Page 13

Duke plent of go in her what is her age lots I like her bark is relentless where the dog is been pulled over chairs nice slippy floor even the echo of the bark is enough to put some dogs off . But what I don't c is a lot of pressure but very nice bitch thanks for sharing

about two years old in the video

Very nice bitch I'd say some nice pups came from her

yes she gave some good ones and will give some more

👍

Gee:@ GSD Fan - shaking bottles and screaming in the dogs face, if that is your yard stick re pressure - LAME.

Your bitch, dealt in the vid what was put in front of it - good dog. (black female)

Absolutely irrelevant, which drive a dog engages in when civil - surely you know that?

Your scenario was not civil, presentation of the body part was a joke, your dog dealt with a routine.

Once again - your dog may well be extremely civil - however if you are gonna blow your own trumpet so hard - back it up with something which is credible, and not a vid which in civil terms is EXTREMELY LAME.

Regards
Gee

 

  Hans: My point exactly!

GSDfan: I am glad you have success doing it your way, but you are so much in the minority...there are hundreds of thousands of working police dogs around the world getting real street bites who have had foundations in "sport" (in my experience the best come from KNVP or PSA type foundations).

Hans: LOL  My point exactly. Everybody does it.  And it is not just my way, it is logical way which many use.   Just because EVERYBODY  does it does not make  it right. Some time ago everybody thought that earth is flat. 

Some of the gsdfan posts are too long that i can not really respond to all of it even so I would like to since I apreciate her.  Thus I respond to this. :

 

gsdfan: Ok well I watched several Alpine K9 videos provided on other threads and need to comment. Here is the thing. After your "initial civil test" where the dog sees the bitesuit for the first time. After that (by watching your videos) you continue training on the suit jacket. You are still slipping the jacket, so after that very first time that jacket becomes equipment and the dog knows it. You just don't let them possess it for long or carry it. But it's still visible equipment, then the decoy plays brief tug with the dog before letting it go....that, even though you don't let them possess it for long the dog can still develop a desire to covet it, especially if they find the decoy to be a source of stress. I have seen old school trained dogs if given a choice between equipment and decoy without equipment will "avoid" into the equipment even if the decoy stings them with a stick because of stress...and not because they had a sport foundation. If you slip the jacket then what is the difference then between starting right on the jacket or starting on a sleeve? It's just different size piece of equipment at that point...and is still considered their "foundation phase" since they are learning to bite. Maybe i'm missing something. You don't agree with a foundation where the dog starts on a bite pillow progressing to a sleeve and is allowed to possess it in order to develop grip and confidence. But it's ok to teach them to bite with their front teeth on a jacket...sometimes coming off...then slip it to them?

 

Hans Answers: 

 First of all if you talk about my training , you can not start with civil test. Before civil test there was extensive  civil training where the dog establishes a default which    then becomes permanent fixture in the dogs mind.  During that training the dogs do never see any equipment and target only a  man. Same as sleeve sportism dog will prefer sleeve for rest of his life ( which a problem I keep pointing out all the time)  dog with default setting   targeting the man  will target the man  instead of equipment and will target the man for rest of his life.  Then when such default is established and proof is done on suit,  then I can teach bites on equipment and the dog will on the street always target the man when in real situation and under stress. This is because: what the dog  learns first , the dog likes most, does best and reverts to under stress.   

 Here is a more detailed description which I have written and  I am too tired to repeat:

http://www.alpinek9forums.com/first-man-then-equipment-why-t3573.html

Prager Hans 

to your last post... fair enough (agree to disagree). do you have a video of a finished dog started this way taking pressure?

Duke and gee, thanks for sharing your videos, nice dogs. Can you share how they were started?

gsdfan:"Here is my thing, I can see you "testing" dogs natural civility as you described a few pages ago in order to choose dogs you find worthy. But, If you are agitating an untrained dog in this "default building" stage you are pushing into defense to stimulate aggression. This is not what I'd do since their first exposure to protection work cuts into their confidence by making them insecure regarding self preservation... but fine, I admit its functional, it's how dogs were trained for decades, and by repetition they can gain satisfactory confidence in the work."

 

Hans Answers:   I do not know where you get all this.:)  I am not talking about "choosing dogs I find worthy"   I am talking about developing dogs from pup or older ones from being totally green. I am not known to dump dogs for their initial ability. As a matter of fact I believe that 90% of all dogs can be trained some level of protection and I do it all the time in spit what all others are doing.  

  You say that in my training the dogs  "first exposure to protection ( defensive) cuts into their confidence by making them insecure" .  Well that may be truth, but only   if the decoy is inept imbecile and trainer does not know how to train such concept.  But if  such concept is done correctly then  it makes the dog more confident and able to deal with adversity which is not what prey does.  I can start pups as early as 6 weeks old  and start them at their civil work in what  I call "Porch Training" concept (which drive detractors up the tree LOL) but fun aside ,  which is basically training by life where in this case when  the pup who  sites with me on porch and  sees intruder  and  barks at her and  I praise it and encourage it,...  but  subsequently i defuse his aggression in positive way when we figure out that intruder is not dangerous but it is ony neighbor and  friend Mabel who is bringing me an apple pie. There are infinity of opportunities in Porch training system and this is just one  example which gave to the concept the name  Initial praising for displayed protecting  then starts to build a PERMANENT default of  civil protective attitude where the man is object of aggression and not  toy, sleeve, suit or other equipment.  All the training is then teaching the dog that he is working for us = The AlpineK9 team    and as the  training progresses then I gradually increase the pressure and pup and eventually dog always wins.  That(!!!) builds confidence.  I never put the dog into flight when he is presented fight or flight choice.  I always teach him or her that the only way to win is to deal with the negative pressure by meeting it   with higher  counter pressure and that way I virtually teach the dog a default that there is only fight and not flight. - EVER.   Flight does not exist as far as  the dog is concerned so to speak. ( not absolutely but bu training . The primery defaut is gnetic.But I am talking about training here.   That way the dog then never even thinks about choosing flight,.... it is just not in his trained default preference. 

 Prager Hans