BUYER BEWARE du Haut Mansard Kennel - Page 2

Nevermind, Andrew. I am not remotely confused. Just curious and frankly shocked that I'm the only one. 

To the owner...what is there to do about MILD hip dysplasia in one hip and an arthritic elbow?? If he were my dog, I'd put him on Adequan and call it a day. It is what it is; it's not a death sentence. It's too bad, but luckily you found it before he was in serious pain and you can try to prolong his comfort. He has no UAP, FCP, or OCD, etc...it's simply arthritic, which is what made me so curious. WHY is a young dog so arthritic in only one elbow? 

I guess I question too much. Forgive my curiosity. 

No one implied that you not ask questions, nothing to forgive. I would believe from what you've written that you feel that it's no big deal for a young dog to have mild hip dysplasia and grade 3 DJD of the elbow? Just put the dog on Adequan and call it a day? I don't recall anyone calling it a death sentence, unfortunately only time will tell how the HD and ED issues will advance and the problems that the dog may experience in the future. One thing is for certain, hips and elbows do not improve with time. I also would believe from what you've written that you feel that the breeder should have no responsibility in this? Just curious, would you as a breeder replace a puppy with these O.F.A. findings?  

Jagenstadt, I've got a dollar that says the suspicion is that somebody mishandled the puppy and caused damage to the joints...like, say, grabbed the pup by the right foreleg and right hindleg, and swung him around playing the 'airplane' or 'helicopter' game like my older cousins used to play with us smaller kids, perhaps? 

Mind you, that certainly could happen--it's not impossible--and that would likely cause serious damage to the elbow and hip joints on whatever side was involved.  But it's not going to cause hip or elbow dysplasia--it's going to cause damage. There's a difference, and a veterinary radiologist would know the difference.

And there's certainly no reason to think that happened in this instance anyway.

  Ok then.....bed time, sweet dreams to all.

From an academic perspective, I can assure you that these symptoms are not based on any type of rough play or negligence.  We received him at 16 weeks of age and he was noticeably loose in the joints which was attributed to his gangly build and the fact that his joints would need time to mature.  We were hyper sensitive to his need to mature and were hoping he would turn out to be recommended for breeding as he is a beautiful boy.   We were careful to ensure that he did not do anything to put is young joints at risk in regards to exercise levels and diet for the first two years.  The potential surgery is called CUE, a prosthetic elbow.  It is sad that when something like this comes up, their is inclination to believe it  may be related to anything but genetics.  We are proud to be of those who believe that there is accountability and responsibility involved in owning such a fine companion.

Wow, lots of assumptions! 

Please refer to my first post where I very clearly state my curiosity and hope that the agreement is honored regardless, as it was an agreement and agreements need to be honored.

 I was unaware that simple genetics are the only cause of grade 3 arthritis (in the absence of FCP, UAP, OCD (which may not necessarily be visible on an xray etc.) in a young dog's one elbow and leave the other one perfectly fine. I guess I have a lot to learn and should just shut up. 

by Jenni78 on 03 December 2012 - 19:12	Jenni78 Posts: 5249 Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 03:24 pm
Right hip and right elbow both bad? Both left joints are normal? Right elbow has only DJD listed and right hip is listed as mild. Out of curiosity, was this dog ever noticeably injured? I'm not trying to undermine the agreement to replace- an agreement is an agreement and should always be honored.  I'm only curious about the pathology from a pure research standpoint.

 I will not defend the breeder's ethics or the breeder per se,  but so far we had only one side of the story. And as my friend said; everything looks clear until someone presents different point of view. 
My intentions expressed  below are  not being judgmental , but will just plainly state opposing facts to the statement of disappointed buyer. 
FYI
1. OFA mild is equal to SV Noch zugelassen( Still permissible) Which are acceptable (!!!)  hips according to SV! When you buy dog from someone in Europe then 
2. you should have contract. Verbal agreement is a joke. In Europe there are plenty of breeders who have warranty and contract and written warranty. 
3. I would bet that such contract would state that the hips are going to be good according to the standards of the country of origin or I am sure that is what the seller believe. 
4. To do surgery for Noch zugelassen or mild HD ( OFA) is totally out of line and it is a rip off perpetuated by many vets these days. 
5. It would be interesting to actually see the radiograph ( x ray film) and evaluate the positioning. 
6. I ( same as Jen) also have a slight problem with one elbow arthritic and other not.  DJD may be caused by injury. I am sure that it is the possible to have genetically one side bad and other perfect. But it is unlikely. Since as some ask . do we ahve gene saparate and different from left elbow to right elblow?  I'd say this is inconclusive.  
In my book benefit of the doubt would favor the buyer though. 

As long as the buyer is polite I personally would send another pup to the buyer in order for him/her to be happy no matter if in this case  he is right or wrong. In my book here the hips are no issue. Noch zugelassen are good hips in Europe. Period.   The only thing is an elbow and even so I would think that there is at least 50: 50 chance that it is caused by injury vs genetics I would just ascribed it  to the genetics and send another pup.  Happiness of the buyer  is more important to me then some money for a pup ,... anyway. But there are some who believe that right is right and wrong is wrong or the buyer may have been belligerent ( I do not know that) and  seller said prove that it is genetic. ...... And burden of prove is on the buyer - the accusing side. .  
Just another side of the story.

Iconoclast Prager Hans

I cannot speak to the frequency of one bad elbow vs. two.  But I can respond to some of the other questions.  As far as injury - we got the pup at 16 weeks, and have seen zero evidence of injury since we took delivery.  We were VERY surprised when we took him in for his two year evaluation.   The vet, is not of the type to push unnecessary surgery, in fact, it is at his suggestion that we are waiting, controlling weight gain, and will take a wait and see approach to any future evaluations and subsequent actions based on symptoms as the develop.  In fact, the vet works at a Medical University and is a leader in the field, and has always given us discounted treatments for rescue animals requiring emergency surgery in the past.  In regards to us (owner) being decent and patient, we have been sending requested information and pictures since May with the understanding that the breeder would make good, at the end of the day - he did not.

Will try to post pics...  - Right Elbow


Right Hip

I really don't understand "WHY" is it so difficult for breeders to give a replacement pup.
Equally as puzzleing is how some of these people want to pass the buck, and blame the owners , stating injury instead of just calling a spade a spade.

I'm with you Kitkat.  Really nice to hear you say that as a breeder, because many (if not all) those you speak of are breeders.