Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 13

Centurian - WHICH poster do you agree with? I found none...

Duke , my post was not directed to you- you are professional- I follow what you do and why . I understand , your role . That's ok . You need to evaluate the dog for those purposes. My remarks were not meant to be directed to that. I was thinking if anyone saw the video , not reading all the posts, this would be a bad to copy.
I make a point for the average* dog person training. The point restated .. in a training program for the average person , I do not believe a dog should ever be put onto a man /woman unless the dog outs. Meaning the dog has a balance of self control , the drives are control , poised smooth , calm and collected within the dog's head- Then consider teaching the PP or any serious biting for real. . I think of it this way , again for the average person , one barometer of the dog is how it bites , ? hard ? fast ? totally deep and full? YES? The bite tells a lot about a dog , YES? So for the average trainer , non professional , there should be other barometers which signifies a dog is ready to be put onto the man for real . And for the average person , not your goals and program , starts PP or any serious work without certain criteria when the dog is not ready : Disaster. Often than not , a very very dangerous dog is created not as protector
For the average person who thinks he can understand a civil dog and train civil , not intended for people in the know like yourself , but the average Joe shmo, who cannot access the training of of a dog and develop a program repeating what is seen in this video gives that person a wrong ideas . I get concerned about that. Duke , we know there are people that get a little info and knowledge and then become copy cats . YES? Step back .. forget all the posts. Think of someone simply seeing that video and thinks , this is the way to test or train a dog . Professionals : if they know what they are doing can have their own ways. A green person , seeing and duplicating that video as a training statergy , will surley get someone hurt.

You’re seriously worried about a “green person” trying to replicate what is shown in the video? Highly unlikely, and really…who cares? Want to try that? Go nuts. You won’t hurt anyone but yourself or the person you’ve signed up to actually take the bite. I can guarantee that for most people it will be the last time they take a live bite or even get in front of a dog like that. Most “green people” wouldn’t even know the first step in agitating a dog in the way that’s being shown to get it into the state of mind where it would bite like that. “Professionals” as you call them…I’m assuming you’re referring to seasoned helpers…all know the risks associated with working dogs. Wave your hands and arms at a dog like that…you better know who’s holding onto the leash.

This is a completely green dog, looks like it just came out of a kennel, the way the dog is acting…very few pet dogs at this age would act. I wish the United States had more dogs available like this without having to go the European route.

Susie , I agreed to the comment :" to much to fast " in the previous thread. I wouldn't evaluate genetics /learned -environmental behavior of a dog on 1 video . Nor would I use a bite interaction alone to see into the dog's head. So I take the posts for what the posters opinions are and no more .

BV , I agree with your last post. However , believe me I have seen foolish people try to mimic things that they see, even with the dogs. " stupid is as stupid does".
Many times I have even come across people who have only trained 2 years and all of a sudden they are in their minds knowledgable protection trainers. Just saying . And to me , someone training protection for 2 years is a newbie. How many times you see a street wise newbie , try to agitate a dog to have it bite , even himself on the arm for example, trying to see or wish the dog to be .. whatever he is trying to make it ? People do mimic , even though stupidly , but they do . I have seen people with no experience try to mimic PSA and teach their dogs to protect their vehicles .. So , go figure that one out. As a matter of fact, many times I come across police K9 handlers .. good handlers, very good handlers ... but in my criteria , can't and don't know one iota how to teach a canine. True !! few pet dogs would act this way , BUT I have seen pet dogs a number of times act that way .. I agree with as you wrote: few. But nonetheless, they exist.

I would point out that - although not recently - we have seen videos put up on PDB by people (from all over the place) who fit the description Centurian outlines. Guys (almost always is male, maybe testosterone has something to do with it LOL) who clearly have just 'heard about' "training" GSDs, and other breeds, to bite: there was at least one vid with Rotties, I recall; on a PPD basis. Usually filmed in someone's little scruffy backyard. Usually utterly clear they didn't have a clue what they were (are) doing. Frankly I think anyone who approaches the whole subject in this way DESERVES to be badly bitten. But unfortunately the dogs were clearly suffering from their cack-handed approach, both to bitework training, and their day-to-day care and management (e.g. sometimes you can see the kenneling conditions etc too).
Unfortunately I don't think NOT showing proper vids of any stage of training will ever prevent that stuff from happening.

Years in training are the worst guide to someone’s expertise and ability. I’ve seen people that have trained dogs for decades do things that I believe are stupid and do nothing for the dog, yet week in and week out the trainer keeps working dogs in the same way and they go no where. Yet there’s decades of experience there so people believe they know what they’re doing. There are guys out there that get in with kennels/trainers and end up working dogs on a daily basis. Two years of working dogs 5-7 times a week is more than most helpers that have been doing it for a decade once a week at club get. The years “doing it” is an American thing because our clubs lack the ability to meet more than once or twice a week usually. There are tons of extremely skilled trainers and helpers in Europe who have been training dogs for about two years and most people would be more than happy to work with them.

Again…who cares if someone tries to mimic what they see in a video? If they get bit, they get bit; it’s not the end of the world. Pet dogs acting that way? You’ve seen like 2 in your life? So now people shouldn’t be posting training videos? Yeah, makes sense. Stop being over-dramatic and worrying about the .0000001% that might do something stupid. Darwinism always wins.

For me, it is less about idiots getting bitten than the damage it can do our breed (and other large working breeds) as a whole, with the public's perception of them being "uncontrolled and vicious" if the guy down the street has his limbs bandaged all the time ...

No BV , has primarily nothing to do with the years alone. But more so the capacity to understand the canine mind , the capacity to be that individual dog.. no not read the dog as that foolish expression goes , I mean to literally be the dog. [ BTW there is scientific evidence that even within person to person interactions you on a chemical basis become one with that person , another topic , but ditto for canine and people]. More over the capacity to address or communicate to the dog and people. including, to both clearly and precise convey specific meaning regarding what is being taught , contributes to good dog teaching. What I have found about training , - to start with the word itself , I'll put that topic aside for now.

Secondly when people train dogs they are bent on methodology and techniques- that is the problem !. That is the main reason people train 2-0, 30 years and never advance. They never realize what they don't know and what they can't do because " this is the way to train a dog" , is their mindset. So in 1 year , I agree with you , some with good talent and guidance can excel.

Now , every country has great trainers for canines , I worked with Belgium , French , best in the world. I trained with my SV protection Judges , best in the world . Also USA the best . But let's not get on a high horse here. Every country has some of the worst trainers you could imagine , 1 year , 30 years training- doesn't matter . YES even Germany and USA too.  I rub elbows and stayed with SV judges that laughed at some of the trainers they had seen in Germany.

Also you need to straighten out your attitude in the style of your replies to posts . Not just to me.. but to many others on this PDB - are you German ? You got an attitude. I make a general point. It has merit. Unless you care to debate this point I make: IMOp if one very very good dog has been ruined , if 1 innocent person gets bit , and heaven help us if it an innocent child badly is bitten because of some ninny that teaches his/her canine protection behaviors/attack people behaviors , [ not the foolish trainer/helper] , then that to me is way to many . Also , I would not have made  that  point  had I not seen this type of stuff so often done. Maybe you haven't , but I have. Another point : why do you think people like PETA go nuts about protection training_ because of people that I was referencing in my previuos post!       And , why did IPO change the word on a send attack from  " Fass " to the foolish word 'Go" , in the trials. - To distance the IPO from conveying to the public , the concept that IPO people teach the dog to' ATTACK a person '- the change in the word is an attempt to display a different meaning to the general public. So you say , don't be concerned about the .00001 % . Well there are a lot of people reasonably or unreasonably concerned now , isn't there ? And even in European countries , Germany foremost  with the bite problems from any breeds they experienced in the past years.  Try to think about someone other than yourself and your own selfish outlook in life - especially those that never post but do spend their time reading the PDB posts. Look at the ' viewed number at the topic section" , you don't think there are some banana heads as well as super people reading the posts?  BTW, theoretically if it were .00001 % out of 350 million people in USA [ 3500 people / dogs ], that is more than enough to worry about.

BTW , Darwism is a very much faulty academic theory and concept.Inconsistent and full of holes in the theory/reasoning.  Do youself a favor , do your research and then get off your high horse in your attitude. Case in point , even as it applies to GS I say : Mutations .. ohhh mutations - you actually think that they have increased the success of a species and evolution takes place. You think that , really in all intellectualism , Darwinsim wins out ?  #1. You cannot add NEW genetic Information to genes. a dog is a dog is a dog. The chromosomes that determine the dog as opposed to a cat, are those chromosomes that can only make a dog and nothing else. [ aside from the genetic engineering / manipulation  / hybridization currently done by man]. That is elementary ! How can a dog ever evolve into something else. For that would mean that DNA was added by other than the two mating canines. You don't get a dolg from cast chromosomes/genes. From where would this new DNAthat contributes to evolving naturally come from in either of those 2 canines ? . How can two like dogs add a difference other than their own canine DNA by themselves mating ? 2. Mutation = an adverse affect or a deterioration of the chromosome / gene. So how in the world do you get something better from something deteriorated? That is why we age- Mutations, breakwon of DNA . Deteriotation in DNA - mutated deteriorating DNA. Darwinism wins , WOWWW. Darwinsim has nothing to do with the post. I would be emabrreseed even to acknowledge the word. People are people ...

 
      People post on the PDB and viewing :  Think -- there are people all over the world visiting this site , [ a good one at that ] , all ages , all walks of life, all types personalities and mindsets .  With kindness , I tell you : be compassionate and think about different people, at different levels of knowledge in the canine world reading the posts. I'm sure they read your posts and wish to learn from you . I don't they are looking for hautiness . There is plenty of that already in their own  lives. Try being constructive for them , not destructive. Add to their lives , don't detract. Just saying.

High horse and attitude? Learn to debate and talk to people. Stop crying to others and trying to win people over by tugging on emotion rather than just writing facts and letting them decide. If you can't handle a discussion without thinking someone is out to get you, the internet is not going to be your friend.

Next step is crying bullying when none is happening. Nice job learning how to try to win an argument when you have no real facts. Step one, cry wolf. Step two, personal attacks. Nothing new.

Stop worrying about who's reading this forum, that's a job for the mods. I can promise you not even .000001% of the world population reads this forum. Stop worrying about the one person on here who might run away because some stranger from half a world away was straight forward with them. Again, if it's so emotionally detrimental to you when a person you've never met has a different opinion than you or doesn't sugar coat things so that they're more palatable for you...the internet is probably not the place for you.

Centurian, you agreed to yourself?

Please help me, because I never met "SV protection judges" - seems to be something that special that even I as a German am not aware of them...

What is "German attitude" ? Just curious...

Centurian, you CLEARLY talked about Duke´s dog and Duke´s handling skills; when you became aware that Duke is no newby, you changed your statement. That´s an "attitude", too, and not the best...

"But more so the capacity to understand the canine mind , the capacity to be that individual dog.. no not read the dog as that foolish expression goes , I mean to literally be the dog."

As far as I know none of the top trainers ( I can´t include myself, because I am no top trainer ) ever tried to become a dog, not even "literally", all of them are fine in case they are able to understand ( read ) the dog, and to act accordingly.

"Darwinism" in case of "natural selection" - that was a joke...