WL or SL for me? - Page 2

Thank you bob! Yes realizing that what im buying in a puppy is bloodlines is what caused me to ask which type of line i should focus on. And perhaps i shouldnt have used the word calm, really i am describing what i hope is his attitude not energy level. So a dog that doesnt get agitated or jumpy is what i would describe as calm, i dont mean i want a low energy dog.

@ jimefam, your original post does say you'd be 'okay' with a deterrent, but only 'if doing PP would lead to issues' ; sorry I did not read that sentence as a 'specific' understanding of the role of a 'deterrent' dog.

If you are an assailant, there is the whole world of difference to consider between having a large dog of the working breeds (and one of unknown quantity / training) in between you and the household, and looking at a Pomeranian yapping at you. THAT was the factor I was talking about.

Lol yes the pomeranian was a bit extreme i admit although having had one as a kid i can vouch for their ability to alert as they bark at damn near anything that moves or at least mine did. But what i was trying to say was i would find it a nice bonus to be able to actually have the dog trained for protection but i would only do it if a trainer i trusted could tell me it wouldnt make the dog too stand offish in every day life. Is that something that may happen, i dont really know as ive never had a dog for that. My male that i bought when i grew up and moved out i had hoped to do those sorts of things with but he was far too aggressive or maybe it was fear masking itself as aggression I don't know.

Poms may 'alert', but once its past that point, they can be easily kicked out of the way ! LOL (No, I'm NOT advocating people do that !) Think you would find the average potential house-burglar would be considerably more hesitant about kicking a Shepherd to one side and would tend to prefer to target your dog-free neighbours instead. Most people tend to rationalise the bigger the dog & its teeth, the more a bite hurts, if you risk it. They are not to know the dog has never been trained to bite, where that is the case - and I wouldn't gamble on that, would you ?

There is a school of thought among some PDB denizens - really not entirely sure this is true of the wider GSD owning community in America - that NO Showline dog will ever bite / protect you, with the possible exception of some "fear biters"; mainly this is based on Ambred ASL AKC type dogs, and the emphasis on breeding an equable temperament so they'll allow Judges to maul them about. And the fact that so many of them are never 'worked' anywhere. There are people who post - or have posted - here who will cite you many individual dogs and their actions to deny that assumption. I come at it from a different perspective, being in Europe, where there really is not such a pronounced split in the working abilities or the temperaments between the working side and the show side. So it may well be that (subject to you researching everything on line about them, with customer reviews, comments on a back site search here, etc, as well as their own adverts) you can find a Show breeder who will fufil your requirements, just as there will undoubtedly be some working breeders who will. Like I said, you need to take the time to establish how well you can trust someone AND their stock; but have an open mind (something that some on here would deny you in their efforts to get you to buy only working lines, I think.) Not every dog with good prey and defence 'drives' is necessarily "over the top" energy wise; not every laid back SL dog is incapable of producing decent drives when actually worked. But for the household you described, I'd say you do not want a too high-energy, high drive animal. It'll still deter the burglars. Again, best of luck.

@OP....I live in America, and I know more people with European Showlines than American Showlines. I have trained more of these dogs ( European SL ) than most and I know very few people that think that ALL SL dogs can't work or be family protector. That's as asinine as the folks that think all WL are high drive.
In searching for the right dog the important thing is the nerves of the dogs the breeder is breeding as opposed to the drives. There are good nerves in both lines, and there are weak nerves in both.
If you have the opportunity to go to either a conformation show or field trial....go and make an evaluation of the breeders and dogs that are represented. From your description, I would seriously look at some DDR breeders, these dogs are not known for high drive, they are usually sound in nerve and have good suspicion for family deterrence.

These gross generalizations bug me. Forget about focusing solely on the lines and find a seller (or breeder if you want a puppy) who KNOWS their dogs well and instead of asking them if their dogs will be good for such and such, ask them what their dogs are best suited to. Ask for references to get others' perspectives on their dogs. Maybe you can find a repeat litter- that would really stack the deck in your favor. But if you ask what the litter is best suited for, and seems like you get an honest answer, that can help eliminate some of the "I have just what you need!" b.s. that a lot of sellers will engage in. A good breeder or seller is NOT going to sell you something that doesn't suit. If they care about their dogs, they don't want the headache of problems and eventual return. With puppies, that's a bit harder because so much of how they end up is up to YOU, but if they know the genetics and you seem to be on the same page as far as understanding your needs, you're well on your way to a successful pairing.

The level of drive is not important- it's the ability of the dog to CAP that drive and assimilate into household living, ie, good nerve is far more important than a particular level of drive. I have sold more than one fairly high-caliber working pup to a family who was tired of their neurotic showline with no useful drive (no, they didn't dump the SL dog- they just knew they didn't want another!). A low drive dog can still be neurotic and high energy. A high drive dog with excellent nerves and a clear head can chill out and be a super family dog. A showline with good nerves can be a super family dog and many can make a good club level dog, too, if the family wants to do sport. I knew an ASL/GSL dog who was more than capable of real protection. Was he the norm? No, but he existed. There are others. There are also other "outlets" for the dog- tracking, which can be done as a family, is one. Of course some are better than others, but my point is, there is something that can be done to work most any dog. Don't get too caught up in either "pet" or "work." Find the right dog for your situation and then find what type activity suits best.

@Jenni & @ Gustav:

Gustav you mentioned that DDR dogs are not known for high drive but there are exceptions. I have seen a dog something like 3,3-4 on Tino with very high drive. My female will ceaselessly chase a ball and will do things ( obedience routines ) just to get the opportunity just to chase the ball/satisfy her drive ( thus giving her enough drive to make her motivationally trainable ). I think the suspicion part is certainly true and some very serious aggression can be brought out with suitable and age/temperament training.

If the op wants I know someone who is selling a young male out of close up old ZpS bloodlines , that would make a really good family protection dog.

back to the original post, at 6-8 months, most dog people with experience could find exactly what you are describing in either wl or sl. just choosing one or the other doesn't guarantee anything.

that's where being able to rely on a good breeder comes in. and novices don't always choose good here either.

I found dogs all over Germany in this age range, in the U.S., not so much. It's pretty much 8 week old pups or something someone else is tired of.

my advice is
1. look for a very reputable breeder and I mean reputable, not just one with good ads and some winning dogs.

2. if you are going a less expensive route, see the parents, the health/hip background, take the pup/young adult away from it's familiar environment and see how it reacts. run from any nervous/shy/dodgy animal and accept no excuse. pup/young adult should be confident in unfamiliar situations or keep looking.

3. post what part of the country you are in and see what people here recommend for breeders.

jmo,
Rik