Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 12

I just was made aware ( thank you ) that I "made it" into your private forum.

No big deal, but in case you feel the need to quote parts of my posts I would be more than thankful if you would add a link to the original topic, in that case people are able to read the whole threat, not only selected parts of it, without the need to search for it.

Kind regards

susie : My words for months... "Genetically civil" versus "civil trained" - now you got it.

Hans :lol I got it about 40+ years ago.

GSDfan @ Hans, thank you for the reply. Although we have previously agreed to disagree with much of your training philosophy I appreciate your explanation. And you did say " Now type 1 dog is always going to have NATURAL ( genetic) civil bite ability , that can not be trained out." Which was what I was getting at.

hans : Do not omit my explanation which I have highlighted ( mainly in gray) in my post above. that was my point all along.

Susie my forum is not private.

 Link added.  

Civil manwork:

 A civil trained bite has to be realistic, therefore delivery of blow on dog is everything. (realistic and very fast)

The decoy should not behave like a TYPICAL helper, but should ACT like an aggressive fxxx

(Think violent drunk on street)

Engage the dog in a civil situation with the muzzle, or a very well hidden sleeve, the blow directed with speed force and realism - or FORGET IT.

(From a realism perspective, that typicaly means a leg bite, as most half wits will kick a dog as opposed to punch it - pre the dog engaging)

Bite suits / overt sleeves - do not count.

Verbal command re passive civil bite should also be trained. 

As a side note, the more varied / challenging the training envirnoment the better.

R
Gee


 

Thank you for implementing the link, I really appreciate it...

Copying material from here is against our TOS.

 

13.post material from PDB at another forum/site without express permission from PDB site administration or from the copyright owners. This includes pm's.

This is a very nice dog. The trainers although not completely lacking experience , they have a lot more to learn in working dogs. A lot more .
The first bite seems to look nice. Nice dog ! But there is already the seeding of the possibility** for future issues, which is trainer created , not dog created . Here is the issue : for a dog with this skill , this high , note : high motivation , this nice capability and at this level of progress , why has not the dog been taught "out" on it's own volition. Why having to be forcefully removed from the bite des one next place the dog into a more real scenario if the dog cannot control himself , calmly , immediately to out under a verbal cue? . Not only do they not help the dog channel itself but moreover they try to place the dog into a situation with a live bite.
One could argue that the dog is ready for this , personally I agree with the previous poster: way way to much , way way to fast *. And if one disagrees , ok a accept your right to differ . I would then ask then : so what indications did the dog give to say to you that it is ready ? Frankly I did not see any from the dog in the first bite.
I never ever test to SEE , if a dog is ready . I let the dog , and I mean in the very real sense of what I write , I let the Dog* tell me [ of course in dog /animal communication ] it is ready [ for any next step in any endeavor]. And if the dog is ready to bite a person , then it bites !! The dog learns on the first attempt , not a failure bite by snagging onto clothing !. Personally I don't simply look at the dog. If I don't realize what is in the dog's mind.. I have no business to move the dog forward , in any endeavor. Looks are deceiving - and not everything we see what as it seems to be. one video btw doesn't say it all . However the dog not outing does say a lot !!
In general , a general comment: If you [ the many readers of this post ] do not understand how and what I mean by this post , IMOp , you should never ever be bringing the dog down the path to bite a human for real ! That is to say , once the dog heads down this path of training , there is no turning back . And once you make a dog insecure in this aspect of training for any reason , [ one being putting the responsibility into the dog before it is ready ] , then you will have created a problem that inside the dog may , at times may , be not so easy to clean up. A dog should never ever bite a person until it is 100% ready , skill wise, emotionally wise , physically wise, educated wise. This dog has not been educated enough to bite for real .

cenyurion, you ask why isnt the dog tought to out properly

simple answer is that I dont train dogs in program or such, I breed and buy dogs for police army etc and these dogs are generally young and untrained, we work them when here but many dogs dont do more than one or two biting sessions when here, I provide green untrained dogs
the dogs I got in this weekend will be in USA next weekend so only work here few times, so no trained behaviour, no clean outs, just testing/working them, just finished testing and videotaping a group that came in yesterday

I have some 500 plus videos on my youtubechannel and most dogs are all first training / testing videos, including errors
that is why I make point between what is geneticly there or trained behaviour, no video from a dog that trained something 20 times and than tape it on my list

im 100% sure this black dog will function well on the street or as a PP dog AFTER COMPLETING full training, right now we look at what is there to begin with

many people are obviously more impressed by a clean out and nice obedience but that tells you absolutely nothing about the quality of the dog for any job beyond sport

Thank you, mrdarcy, but I think it´s fine when people are able to read this threat...
I just wanted them to have access to all of it