Unusual use of an e-collar? - Page 10

Hundmutter you were not around in the early 1900's, please either try again or learn to count. Col Most was training dogs before your parents were born probably. William Koehler, the father of all modern day training was the only method around back then, 50's and 60's, but, again, the focus of this thread is the multiple use of E collars and how they can be effective when properly used, end of.

 

We teach dogs using a lot of methods. You can use a stick to train your dog (I believe Bart Bellon still does), a prong, a hemp rope, an e collar etc..whats your point? Here come the non applicable anologys..so someone hurts a horse's foot so it prances and we equate that to a tool that we use to communicate with a dog using light electronic stimulation? Why don't you throw the prong in there too and the choke chain? All can cause pain, can be abused and can cause more lasting harm to a dog then an E Collar on the highest setting. All those tools can also be used to communicate with your dog.

I'm disappointed because instead of hearing an intelligent discussion by people who know what they are talking about because they have actually TRAINED with an E Collar and understand the various pros and cons to using one in this context, hear emotionally laden verbal diarrhea that is being passed off as fact. Then I hear some foolish random comparison, then the stupid what if questions that are the staple argument for those that have no actual knowledge.

Hexe, just because you have a remote trainer does not mean you know how to properly use one.  Your comments on this topic lead me to believe you do not.

Well. Haz, please excuse me if I don't understand the GSD working dog world and make stupid statements about the accepted training methods generally used. When I see a dog wearing 2 e-collars used as advertising that sends the message to ME that the owner is bragging that his dog is so tough that he needs to use multiple devices to control him. It certainly can't be intended to boast about the trainer's skills, can it?

Thus your ignorance is displayed for all to see. Instead of saying to yourself: Blitzen, you have no idea why the E Collar is used in this context and likely have no idea how to properly use an E Collar at all here is a chance to expand my knowledge. Instead you started spouting off about something about which you knew nothing and continued the spread of misinformation thus contributing nothing of note to the discussion.
I cant begin to explain to you why a trainer would use two e collars as you clearly dont understand the basic principles behind the use of an E Collar so whats the point?

I know that FACTS are probably not something that many of you on here deal in but lets try some out?

FACT:  A study conducted on PSDs using +R, the Prong, and the E Collar to teach the quit command showed the E Collar to be the most effective and reliable tool to teach and re enforce the desired behaviors.  In addittion it was shown to cause less stress to the dogs then the prong.  Scientists postulate that this was because the dogs percieved the stim to be environmental in nature. Link to study on leerburg for those who want to read it.

FACT: New E Collar models allow the handler to stim from ultra low levels to higher levels.  Many E Collar trainers actually have their clients use the ecollar on thimselves so they can capture the timing required to be successful in using this tool. Must be real painful and abusive.. 

FACT:  Stimming the flank is not about causing more pain since it is probably no more sensative then the neck.  Stimming the flank is used to adjust or check the dogs movement and used in conjunction with other tools to communicate instantly with the dog.

FACT:  Using the E Collar exclusively at high levels gets you nothing more or less then using any other form of compulsion to teach a dog.  The dog will preform the excercises but without the flash that you need to win nowadays.

FACT:  The most effective use of the E Collar is in conjunction with posative re enforcement thus you achieve clean execution with the flashy upbeat movement.

FACT:  The majority of top tier trainers in sport use the E Collar commonly with a nepopo type structure.  Their preformance and dogs speak for themselves. 

FACT:  Every half ass trainer knows that not all training tools are right for all dogs.  There is no one size fits all in dog training.  Different dogs and people use different methods.  A good trainer employs the right tools at the right time for the right dog. 
An E Collar is a tool placing it on the flank or the neck make no difference ethically.  You would understand why that is if you are properly educated on the use of this tool.

FACT:  I can train a dog to heal and recall reliably in 1-2 weeks and have the dog offleash 24/7 in both urban and rural environments with an E Collar around distractions.  When a dog is taught how the system works communication with this tool becomes instant and clear. 

 

Gustav you make a good point.  Trainers stick with what works for them as they should.  That doesnt mean you reject other tools out of ignorance and proceed to spread that misinformation.

Hundmutter    
If the question you are waiting for an answer is how do you prevent the receiver from moving and shocking the dog in the genitals?
This is one tool that I  use
http://www.hawxdoggun.com/tech-stretch.php

Other companies (Einstein Collars) make their own version of a stretch collar

Thomas Barriano

Facts and norm are not popular with some on this forum...at some point you have to ignore some responses because they are grounded in likes and appearance....which is fine for Art.....but I think dog training requires more substance. To the initial post from OP, I really think you have to get a response from a person that has used this approach to understand their thinking and intent. The other thing is without knowing the strength of the signal, you cannot assess whether it is cruel or abusive. If you are in the sport world,(OP), I am sure there are people who train with the remote that can give you insight into what you are questioning. 

Haz, believe what you like. I cut my permanent teeth on Koehler, and will never remove him from my ‘toolbox’, and have--and still do, when appropriate--trained with remote collars from the day I began apprenticing in training, over thirty years ago, both the original style that gave you one option [push the button, 'shock the monkey', as it were], to the 31-flavors versions that the primitive collars have evolved into, so don't try to tell me that the analogy isn't appropriate. The equivalent of your 'light electrical stimulation', presuming we're speaking of the collar placed where it's meant to be used--on the dog's neck--in the gaited show horse world are the various devices that are fastened around the horse's leg just below the pastern, like a bracelet, which don't cause the horse any pain but still provide sufficient sensation to enhance the 'prance' as you call it. "Light electrical stimulation" elsewhere on the dog's body IS analogous to 'mildly soring' a horse--given that I have familiarity with both practices, and you clearly do not, I'm in a better position to judge that.


If it's all such a peachy-keen training technique, why does it produce such vehemence in those who defend it? There are lots of folks who abhor the basic, old-school 'slip' collar, a.k.a. 'choker', yet I've never come upon anyone who was a proponent of the tool get as rabid about its utility and the humaneness of the device as the folks who think it's OK to strap an electricity-producing training device anyplace you can possibly get it to stay put.
 
I truly don't care what your opinion of me is. I don't care how many 'real trainers' of 'real dogs' defend the use of electricity-producing training devices placed anywhere on a dog save it's neck, it's not going to change my position that such use is abusive, and unnecessary.
 

"Hundmutter
If the question you are waiting for an answer is how do you prevent the receiver from moving and shocking the dog in the genitals?
This is one tool that I use
http://www.hawxdoggun.com/tech-stretch.php"

My reading skills must be failing. Here's the copy for this stretch collar on the web page cited, but I can't find any mention of this tool being designed for fastening a remote trainer around the loin area of the dog... I only can find reference to the dog's neck.


This new e-collar technology expands and contracts as your dog's neck muscles work. The benefits are significant in e-collar performance and dog comfort versus traditional e-collars.

Performance:

The greatest problem in overall performance of traditional e-collars is what is called an "Open Circuit Condition". This condition occurs when skin contact is lost, which can happen a number of ways including:

- When a dog runs hard and bounces.

- If the e-collar is put on too loose.

- If the dog is collar-weary and expands his neck when the collar is tightened or sucks in his neck to loosen the collar.

 

Comfort:

As you can imagine, a collar that does not expand (traditional designs) will feel constricting and tight during heavy breathing and exercise. This, of course, is not comfortable for any dog, especially working dogs (try it yourself). Comfort and fit are extremely important for the following reasons:

- Having consistent pressure increases the wear time (extended use).

- Reduces becoming collar-weary for dogs.

- He is your best friend, so give him a pair of "shoes" that fit.

 

Fit:

Fitting a collar properly is a bit of an art. The Stretch E-Strap has a tightening system that allows you to gauge the tightness and get a consistent fit. This stops the problem of conventional over-tightening or loose fits. The buckle is made of see-through material to allow you to gauge the fit. The Stretch E-Strap provides benefits for all e-collars, including bark collars, remote dog training collars, and pet containment collars. The universal strap is standard equipment on any Hawx Dog & Gun ™ system but can be used on Tri-Tronics, Dogtra, Innotek, Petsafe, DT Systems, and most other manufacturers.

Fitting procedures:

1) Put the collar on the dog in the middle of his neck

-2) Pull the strap until the cable ends meet the fit line or your custom position

3) Buckle the strap. The buckle should be able to expand and contract no matter what the position of the collar is on the dog's neck.

Note: A leash should never be attached to the Stretch E-Strap, use a separate collar.

 

Durability:

The Hawx system is designed for rugged use, using 100% stainless steel parts and durable polycarbonate plastic. It can be disassembled if cleaning is required.     




 

Im not trying to change your mind..ignorance is bliss afterall.I just hope a novice doesnt come on here and believe this garbage. Again you have no facts your still talking about electricity and the collars location which tells anyone that knows anything about this type of training that you know nothing about the tool.
Does a prong hurt when you yank on it with your muscle power or would it be worse if it used electricity?..lol.

Probably why if you want to learn how to use an e collar you dont talk to hexe. You go to Bellon, ellis or a td that knows his stuff and has actually achieved something.

Dissapointing that after 30 years of training you choose to spread misinformation based on ignorance..theres really no excuse. Goes to show that age doesnt always equal wisdom i guess.


Anyways this has been interesting you ladies have fun now..

Well, you've got one thing right, Haz.  Anyone wanting to learn how to train with an e collar, or any other training tool for that matter, don't knock on my tree. I burned out on teaching people a long, long time ago.  The ratio of the congenitally clueless and hopeless dog owners far exceeded the ones who just needed education and encouragement to succeed.

Wow Hexe you can cut and paste, I'm impressed.
Hundmutter asked how you keep the receiver (when used around the belly) from sliding down to the groin. I replied with the tool that I used to keep my collars in place. Anyone that still uses Koehler and condemns the use of low level modern remote trainers. Isn't a person that anyone can have an intelligent training discussion with :-(

Thomas Barriano