black/red x black/red = sable puppy?????? - Page 2

Getting the popcorn.

The reason white is a differernt case is it is carried on a different chromosome than the other patterns and, if doubled up, masks the true color of the dog.  The dog is still genetically whatever it is and can pass on that gene.

Molly in no way said if you have one sable parent any of its offspring will be sable.  A sable dog could carry any other color and produce puppies with that color depending on the color gene they inherit from the other parent.

She said two B&T cannot produce sable.  If a B&T has the sable gene, it will be a sable.


Unlike you I am not even breeding dogs and could care less if a good dog was pink with yellow polka dots, but this is pretty well known stuff.

White is a recessive masking gene--not a "real" color. Therefore a white dog carries the genes for another color.  So genetically they can be sable, blk/tan, bi-color, or black but they look white.

Sable is a dominant color gene. If a dog carries sable, they are sable. (unless they have the white masking gene). A dog carrying a sable gene WILL NOT be blk/tan, bicolor or black.

There is no way 2 black/tan(red) parents threw a sable puppy.

--Mary

gwgtwnbaxley, also I do not understand the purpose of the pedigree.  Are you trying to say that every gsd has white genes in it.  Don't you know that there have been many of the original genes eleminated thru selective breeding and  all scrupulous breeders try to avoid producing the white gsd.  ecs

I have a question then- i am definitely not up on all the genetics etc, but is it possible for 2 sables to have a bi-color pup? 

Mystere - yes.  Since sable is dominant, a sable dog could carry any other color as a recessive (sable, black/tan, bicolor, black).  So if a sable with bicolor recessive is bred to a sable with - say black recessive or another sable with bicolor recessive, then yes some puppies could be bicolor.

I have a bicolor female who does not carry black - bred to black she produces bicolors and black/tans.  Meaning she is a bicolor/black tan, or blacktan with bicolor "tag" - anyway.  I have a grey sable female who also does not carry  black - she produces dark black/tans and bicolors in her litters when bred to a black stud (and dark sables).  So that would mean that bicolor is not in fact a separate color gene, but instead a "gene tag" attached to the black/tan of some dogs.

One indication I  have learned over the years - is if a sable dog carries black OR bicolor, he/she will have black toe marks/tarheels.  If they carry black/tan or another sable gene, there will be no black toe marks/tarheels present.
molly

Thanks Molly very helpful!

I would not believe it unless they could should me the DNA of both parents match the DNA on the pup.
DNA is the bottom line
People can say whatever they want, I can bet you neither parent has any DNA on file to reference.

I will end on this note, since you know everything there is to know about GSD ( I have only been breeding for thirty years). You have not addressed the possible mutations or dormant genes that cannot be accounted for. Yes, the odds are that they will be blk/tn or blk/red. But NOBODY cannot say for 100% that this will always happen 100% of the time. And you have also not accounted for the panda color mutation that has occured. Again I think those breeders are hurting the breed, but it has occured. Breeding cannot be 100% on either, sex,color,coat,temperment, etc. Yes you can make an educated guess and will be more than likely right, that the blk/tn or blk/red will come through with both blk/tn or blk/red parents probably 999,999 to one million. But you cannot say 100% of the time, it's just wrong. Nature is always adapting and changing. Just one mutation can occur and produce something different as with this panda gene that has occured.