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by Silbersee on 02 February 2012 - 19:02
This is going around in circles, not worth continuing and should be closed! Jantie will never understand that the SV is a German national organization, not international. Therefore, they can only ban offspring which were born in Germany and that is it! Anything else must come from Sweden - regarding Harley. If Sweden has the same breeding regulations, then he can be banned. Here in the U.S., AKC would never disqualify him due to his sire's ED status. People are decrying the SV and its handling of matters, but the SV has the world's strictest breeding regulations. Yet, it is not good enough for certain people! Yes, there certainly is corruption (just like anywhere else where something is to be gained) and it should be erradicated. A never ending battle for the weary! Jantie states that David, Randy and I try to discredit him but we do not need to. He does that all by himself! Just a couple of days ago, I checked the German forums which I had not done for a while. One poster describes Jantie: The Belgian blogger only acts out of revenge due to his priced puppy's failed hips. If everything would have been fine with the dog, Jantie would be part of the circles he now so hates. The author of that statement is a working person, btw. It just about sums it up - Jantie holds grudges against the breeder of his dog (to my knowledge the only GSD he has owned so far) and the SV who failed to help him in his confused quest for justice. If he thought objectively, he would realize that for actions to be taken, proof has to be brought to the table. A statement from another person (especially anonymous) is not proof, it is one word against the other. What is also irritating is the arrogance Jantie uses then PDB users ask him to clarify something he put out here in German. This is an English forum. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect a translation. Jantie's German is certainly not the best either! Example: See his (German) post regarding a breeding ban of Uran Rieser Perle who is a maternal half-brother to the T-litter.
by paulo on 02 February 2012 - 20:02
Videx, I should have made it clear my comments were directed at corrupt breeders in general and not specifically those who may be responsible for the Jaguar situation, by the way your posts were more entertaining when you were upsetting our Scottish friends, are you welcome up there again yet ? ;).
by allanf on 03 February 2012 - 00:02
To summarise the announcements from the SV:
For the dog, "Team Marboro Jaguar", the registered ED findings in Germany were stated as "normal" and the registered findings in Sweden were stated as "middle ED". On the initiative of the SV, a comparison was made of the x-ray (photograph) from Germany and the x-ray from Sweden. It was agreed that the x-rays came from two different dogs.
Subsequently, officials in Sweden x-rayed "Team Marlboro Jaguar" a second time, and found that the dogs in their first and second x-rays were identical.
Therefore, the Swedish finding of "middle ED" is considered binding, and the German finding of "normal" is revoked. As a consequence, the V-rating awarded to "Team Marlboro Jaguar" at the SiegerShow, as well as his Breed Survey, have to be revoked.
Perhaps someone with more tehnical knowledge could explain the differences between the elbow ratings, and why they have so much significance that the SV determined to revoke the V-rating and Breed Survey from the hapless "Team Marlboro Jaguar".
I have met a GSD owner and her dog who suffered the devastating consequences of a breeder that used dogs with elbows that were not all clear. My encounter was sufficient enough to make anyone reconsider the purchase of a GSD puppy.
The SV must be seen to condemn the practice of breeding GSDs with anything less than perfect elbows. There is no harm in someone waving a stick at the SV to ensure that it acts appropriately in such a high-profile case. Indeed, the activities of people like Jantie are welcome IMHO.
The notion that the SV is not an international body is naive. The situation in North America may be an exception, but, in every other nook and cranny around the globe, the influence of the SV and its judges and activities will be found. You are more likely to find people like Videx banging on about how the GSD is a German dog and how therefore the German SV should be regarded as the highest international authority. The SV must be held accountable.
For the dog, "Team Marboro Jaguar", the registered ED findings in Germany were stated as "normal" and the registered findings in Sweden were stated as "middle ED". On the initiative of the SV, a comparison was made of the x-ray (photograph) from Germany and the x-ray from Sweden. It was agreed that the x-rays came from two different dogs.
Subsequently, officials in Sweden x-rayed "Team Marlboro Jaguar" a second time, and found that the dogs in their first and second x-rays were identical.
Therefore, the Swedish finding of "middle ED" is considered binding, and the German finding of "normal" is revoked. As a consequence, the V-rating awarded to "Team Marlboro Jaguar" at the SiegerShow, as well as his Breed Survey, have to be revoked.
Perhaps someone with more tehnical knowledge could explain the differences between the elbow ratings, and why they have so much significance that the SV determined to revoke the V-rating and Breed Survey from the hapless "Team Marlboro Jaguar".
I have met a GSD owner and her dog who suffered the devastating consequences of a breeder that used dogs with elbows that were not all clear. My encounter was sufficient enough to make anyone reconsider the purchase of a GSD puppy.
The SV must be seen to condemn the practice of breeding GSDs with anything less than perfect elbows. There is no harm in someone waving a stick at the SV to ensure that it acts appropriately in such a high-profile case. Indeed, the activities of people like Jantie are welcome IMHO.
The notion that the SV is not an international body is naive. The situation in North America may be an exception, but, in every other nook and cranny around the globe, the influence of the SV and its judges and activities will be found. You are more likely to find people like Videx banging on about how the GSD is a German dog and how therefore the German SV should be regarded as the highest international authority. The SV must be held accountable.
by Oskar1 on 03 February 2012 - 07:02
Hello,
this will be my last post regarding this, as the outcome of this seems to be fruitless.
This is my personal opinion about this :
Maybe some of the posters are more right in their belief than others.
I will try to take a look at the facts :
When Jan posted his 1st warning it was deleted. Reason given for deletion was hearsay, slander, not proven.
Then the SV posted exactly the same thing as Jan did, just without the conclusions Jan made. This then was ok ,for PDB.
Sad part is, what he wrote was true at the end of the day, at least in mayor parts - the rest maybe also true a little later !
This is now where the mudslinging started :
I agree, I do not know excatly how the breeding regulations are in Sweden, Denmark...... but then again, if they are that different from each other in regards of stabelizing and protecting health matters in our breed, something goes terribly wrong. On top, one has to ask why we have a FCI ?
What Jan stated, and I believe here again kicks the language barrier in, was what the regulations are within the SV, and they are pretty clear : No breeding with dogs that do have either Hipp- or Ellbowdisplasia ! Furthermore the SV breeding regulations do state, that no offspring out of a pairing of parents that do have Displasia can be registered with the SV breedbook.
So, if you stick with the book - of course Jan only refrerred to the GERMAN SV BREEDING RULES - there can be no other decision be made, than taking ALL , within the German Breedbook registered offspring out of Jaguar, out of the breedbook.
Of course it is sad, Harley is indeed a very good specimen of the breed, but these rules do exist, and they are there for a reason. If these rules would now not be enforced, what would that mean ?
1. It would mean, these rules would not equaly apply to all.(within Germany)
2. It would mean, by excepting Harley, or any other offspring of Jaguar, these animals could be bred and the danger of passing ED on, is
much greater.
3. Furthermore, and that is frightening, all scientific work and efforts to eliminate, or to hold HD & ED at bay, are put at jepardy.
Annother thought, what is it worth to have these strict regulations, if only a few countrys stick to them ? Basicly, if one has high morals to only breed to the highest standart, he will have to do a lot of work to find breeding partners, that meet his morals, as it seems, now everybody does what he likes to do !!
On top, this whole case, can easily make one wonder, if this is an isolated case, or if we only got to see the tip of the iceberg !
Many here in Germany are a little pi****d too, we here have to obey so much more rules, that on top come with financial efforts aswell, than other participants from others countrys, that they feel that they have a disadvantage compared to other countrys. Jup, they are right, but does that give them the right to cheat ?
And yes, it would be the best, that there would be, regarding health & healthchecks, a worldwide standart - that not only would be fair for all breeders involved - that would be the greatest service to our breed.
Jan is in my opinion right, if the SV accepts offspring of Jaguar in the breedbook, they are acting against their own rules - I truely believe that they will not do that. That would mean undermining the healthefforts, that we cant let happen.
Chris, I will pm you, just give me a little time. Oh, and by the way Chris, neither english nor german are Jan's first language - so knowing that, I believe he does pretty good.
Ulli
David, he knows - it's simple, it means no breeding with that animal or his offspring ! Simple enough for you ? On top, uups, ED now for Jaguar - not only "mittlere ED" nope, it's now "schwere ED" - ah, who cares, let's gamble !
this will be my last post regarding this, as the outcome of this seems to be fruitless.
This is my personal opinion about this :
Maybe some of the posters are more right in their belief than others.
I will try to take a look at the facts :
When Jan posted his 1st warning it was deleted. Reason given for deletion was hearsay, slander, not proven.
Then the SV posted exactly the same thing as Jan did, just without the conclusions Jan made. This then was ok ,for PDB.
Sad part is, what he wrote was true at the end of the day, at least in mayor parts - the rest maybe also true a little later !
This is now where the mudslinging started :
I agree, I do not know excatly how the breeding regulations are in Sweden, Denmark...... but then again, if they are that different from each other in regards of stabelizing and protecting health matters in our breed, something goes terribly wrong. On top, one has to ask why we have a FCI ?
What Jan stated, and I believe here again kicks the language barrier in, was what the regulations are within the SV, and they are pretty clear : No breeding with dogs that do have either Hipp- or Ellbowdisplasia ! Furthermore the SV breeding regulations do state, that no offspring out of a pairing of parents that do have Displasia can be registered with the SV breedbook.
So, if you stick with the book - of course Jan only refrerred to the GERMAN SV BREEDING RULES - there can be no other decision be made, than taking ALL , within the German Breedbook registered offspring out of Jaguar, out of the breedbook.
Of course it is sad, Harley is indeed a very good specimen of the breed, but these rules do exist, and they are there for a reason. If these rules would now not be enforced, what would that mean ?
1. It would mean, these rules would not equaly apply to all.(within Germany)
2. It would mean, by excepting Harley, or any other offspring of Jaguar, these animals could be bred and the danger of passing ED on, is
much greater.
3. Furthermore, and that is frightening, all scientific work and efforts to eliminate, or to hold HD & ED at bay, are put at jepardy.
Annother thought, what is it worth to have these strict regulations, if only a few countrys stick to them ? Basicly, if one has high morals to only breed to the highest standart, he will have to do a lot of work to find breeding partners, that meet his morals, as it seems, now everybody does what he likes to do !!
On top, this whole case, can easily make one wonder, if this is an isolated case, or if we only got to see the tip of the iceberg !
Many here in Germany are a little pi****d too, we here have to obey so much more rules, that on top come with financial efforts aswell, than other participants from others countrys, that they feel that they have a disadvantage compared to other countrys. Jup, they are right, but does that give them the right to cheat ?
And yes, it would be the best, that there would be, regarding health & healthchecks, a worldwide standart - that not only would be fair for all breeders involved - that would be the greatest service to our breed.
Jan is in my opinion right, if the SV accepts offspring of Jaguar in the breedbook, they are acting against their own rules - I truely believe that they will not do that. That would mean undermining the healthefforts, that we cant let happen.
Chris, I will pm you, just give me a little time. Oh, and by the way Chris, neither english nor german are Jan's first language - so knowing that, I believe he does pretty good.
Ulli
David, he knows - it's simple, it means no breeding with that animal or his offspring ! Simple enough for you ? On top, uups, ED now for Jaguar - not only "mittlere ED" nope, it's now "schwere ED" - ah, who cares, let's gamble !
by paulo on 03 February 2012 - 14:02
This physical condition did not start with Jaguar, his mother or father passed the gene on to him despite presumably showing no symptoms themselves (or did they ?), yet his clear progeny are to be excluded ?, perhaps the SV should put money into researching the transmission of the problem rather than shutting the stable door after the horse is long gone.
by Silbersee on 03 February 2012 - 15:02
quote>>>The notion that the SV is not an international body is naive. The situation in North America may be an exception, but, in every other nook and cranny around the globe, the influence of the SV and its judges and activities will be found. You are more likely to find people like Videx banging on about how the GSD is a German dog and how therefore the German SV should be regarded as the highest international authority. The SV must be held accountable.<<<unquote
allanf, I think people like you are naive with statements like that. Yes, the SV has a lot of influence in (almost) "every nook and cranny around the globe" but only through breeders, sports enthusiasts, show exhibitors and serious dog/puppy buyers. Not through legality and regulations! Where are you from? The UK, the U.S., Australia? Are the breeders in the UK or Australia bound to title and breed survey deogs (besides health screenings) before they can be bred? Well, in Germany you would have to. In most European countries, there are at least health screening requirements, not so in the U.S. and in plenty of other countries. Yet, the SV still has an influence but not a mandatory one. I don't know what else to write to make people like you understand. Perhaps another example will help: If a U.S. (AKC) registered German Shepherd is taken to Germany and he passes mandatory HD and ED screenings there and goes on to be SchH titled (unlikely but not impossible), breed surveyed and receives a minimum show rating of G, he can now be bred under SV regulations, under his own merit. Even if it is found out that he came from a long line of questionable backyard bred dogs with no health screenings, parents had to be PTS due to severe and crippling hip dysplasia and he himself was the result of an incest breeding of father - daughter. Now that is an extreme case, but guess what: The SV would be bound by FCI regulations to treat that dog (and his offspring) just like all others. To go back to Harley: He is from Sweden and if Swedish regulations do not ban him from breeding, the SV will not be able to either. And now I spelled it out: If you want to change anything internationally, contact the FCI!!! That is where you start! Do not hold the SV responsible or accountable for matters they have no powers over or influence with!
Ulli, I am well aware that neither English nor German is Jantie's first language. As a matter of fact I was waiting for that argument! 8-P I can assure you that I am the last person to correct or remind a person of language deficits since English is not my first language either! However, he has the arrogance and impertinence to belittle people who care to question his posts in German due to lack of understanding! And that is very irritating to me! Regardless, I am looking forward to hearing from you and hope to catch up on matters! I have been out of the loop since we just moved a few months ago! Talk to you soon!
Regards, Chris
allanf, I think people like you are naive with statements like that. Yes, the SV has a lot of influence in (almost) "every nook and cranny around the globe" but only through breeders, sports enthusiasts, show exhibitors and serious dog/puppy buyers. Not through legality and regulations! Where are you from? The UK, the U.S., Australia? Are the breeders in the UK or Australia bound to title and breed survey deogs (besides health screenings) before they can be bred? Well, in Germany you would have to. In most European countries, there are at least health screening requirements, not so in the U.S. and in plenty of other countries. Yet, the SV still has an influence but not a mandatory one. I don't know what else to write to make people like you understand. Perhaps another example will help: If a U.S. (AKC) registered German Shepherd is taken to Germany and he passes mandatory HD and ED screenings there and goes on to be SchH titled (unlikely but not impossible), breed surveyed and receives a minimum show rating of G, he can now be bred under SV regulations, under his own merit. Even if it is found out that he came from a long line of questionable backyard bred dogs with no health screenings, parents had to be PTS due to severe and crippling hip dysplasia and he himself was the result of an incest breeding of father - daughter. Now that is an extreme case, but guess what: The SV would be bound by FCI regulations to treat that dog (and his offspring) just like all others. To go back to Harley: He is from Sweden and if Swedish regulations do not ban him from breeding, the SV will not be able to either. And now I spelled it out: If you want to change anything internationally, contact the FCI!!! That is where you start! Do not hold the SV responsible or accountable for matters they have no powers over or influence with!
Ulli, I am well aware that neither English nor German is Jantie's first language. As a matter of fact I was waiting for that argument! 8-P I can assure you that I am the last person to correct or remind a person of language deficits since English is not my first language either! However, he has the arrogance and impertinence to belittle people who care to question his posts in German due to lack of understanding! And that is very irritating to me! Regardless, I am looking forward to hearing from you and hope to catch up on matters! I have been out of the loop since we just moved a few months ago! Talk to you soon!
Regards, Chris
by Oskar1 on 03 February 2012 - 15:02
Paulo,
as far as I know his mothere has a3 Hipps - anything else negativ I do not know about. Note, I do not know about anything else, that sure does not mean anything.
Yup, I can understand the frustration that will result out of this ordeal - there might very well be offspring out of Jaguar that has clear Hipps & Ellbows, but the risk that comes with breeding these animals is simply too high. Too high in regards that their ofspring will then be invested with the high risk of having bad Hipps & Ellbows.
Science shows it clearly - you have to take these animals out of any breeding program, if you dont, you play "russian roulette" with the health of the puppys born out of such matings. You would knowingly taking the chance that animals out of such breeding could suffer, that idaer alone should anybody stop from doing such a breeding.
In regaqrds to your last sentence, I agree, there should be much more research. But I sure like that stable door closed, so that we have at least a clean stable for now !
Ulli
as far as I know his mothere has a3 Hipps - anything else negativ I do not know about. Note, I do not know about anything else, that sure does not mean anything.
Yup, I can understand the frustration that will result out of this ordeal - there might very well be offspring out of Jaguar that has clear Hipps & Ellbows, but the risk that comes with breeding these animals is simply too high. Too high in regards that their ofspring will then be invested with the high risk of having bad Hipps & Ellbows.
Science shows it clearly - you have to take these animals out of any breeding program, if you dont, you play "russian roulette" with the health of the puppys born out of such matings. You would knowingly taking the chance that animals out of such breeding could suffer, that idaer alone should anybody stop from doing such a breeding.
In regaqrds to your last sentence, I agree, there should be much more research. But I sure like that stable door closed, so that we have at least a clean stable for now !
Ulli
by GSD Admin on 03 February 2012 - 16:02
This will be my last statement until the SV releases their final report.
You guys can debate the merits till you are blue in the face.
My whole point is you do not put the CART before the HORSE if you want to get someplace. It makes no sense slinging mud before the final outcome and at the end of the day the only person slinging real mud is Jantie. NO ONE has slung mud at Jantie. But Jantie has proclaimed that he has a crystal ball and knows without a doubt what will happen. Even though there are usually exceptions to all rules.
Jantie please look into your cyrstal ball and come up with todays winning lottery numbers for us.
You guys can debate the merits till you are blue in the face.
My whole point is you do not put the CART before the HORSE if you want to get someplace. It makes no sense slinging mud before the final outcome and at the end of the day the only person slinging real mud is Jantie. NO ONE has slung mud at Jantie. But Jantie has proclaimed that he has a crystal ball and knows without a doubt what will happen. Even though there are usually exceptions to all rules.
Jantie please look into your cyrstal ball and come up with todays winning lottery numbers for us.
by Jantie on 03 February 2012 - 18:02
Will be my last too!
Because you want a prediction:
I can't come up with todays winning lottery numbers because there are too many lotteries in this vast world, you did not specify any country!
But I'll give you a prediction:
we will witness a major change (nuclear bomb) in the SV-landscape soon.
When?
Not in years, not in months.
Give me two weeks at the most.
Now take back your unfair remark: "the only person slinging real mud is Jantie".
I'm not slinging mud, I am only saying that all of Jaguars progeny must and will be banned from the SV-breeding book!
(That is NOT a prediction but a sure fact.)
Now where's the mud??
Because you want a prediction:
I can't come up with todays winning lottery numbers because there are too many lotteries in this vast world, you did not specify any country!
But I'll give you a prediction:
we will witness a major change (nuclear bomb) in the SV-landscape soon.
When?
Not in years, not in months.
Give me two weeks at the most.
Now take back your unfair remark: "the only person slinging real mud is Jantie".
I'm not slinging mud, I am only saying that all of Jaguars progeny must and will be banned from the SV-breeding book!
(That is NOT a prediction but a sure fact.)
Now where's the mud??
by GSD Admin on 03 February 2012 - 18:02
The mud slinging is predicting what will happen and without the final decision posting things on dogs pedigrees which if you are not correct is slanderous at best. Now times that by thousands of users and hopefully you can see the mess at hand. Do you want this place to be about predictions or FACTS?
If I let everyone in the world who has partial facts post here their predictions, this place would become a cluster mess of partial facts and slanderous predictions.
See, believe it or not there are 1000's of user here not just Jantie.
Please do not bother calling me out further or asking for my apology as I am still waiting on your apology for posting my private communications on your little blog.
Good day and I hope for every ones sake your prediction comes true or there will be real consequences here and elsewhere.
If I let everyone in the world who has partial facts post here their predictions, this place would become a cluster mess of partial facts and slanderous predictions.
See, believe it or not there are 1000's of user here not just Jantie.
Please do not bother calling me out further or asking for my apology as I am still waiting on your apology for posting my private communications on your little blog.
Good day and I hope for every ones sake your prediction comes true or there will be real consequences here and elsewhere.
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