My Dogs Did Not Come To My Aid :( - Page 9

Duke, what I was referring to was shutting even a capable dog down due to very bad training, long lasting, counter-productive "training". I don't mean that is what happened to the OP's dogs. The same dogs that, prior to the bad "training" (even bad imprinting), would be perfect in proper hands.

Isn't it just instinctive for a GSD (or most dogs) to want to get involved in a situation as described here by the OP?

Blitzen, instinct can be suppressed to the point where a dog will not act on it. For instance, it is instinctual for most dogs to kill chickens, but that instinct can be suppressed so that the dog will not kill them....that is what training is about---utilizing certain instincts and suppressing others. Bad training can inadvertently suppress/ shut down desirable instincts.

Even a human being has a sense about other humans. I know as a kid at  parties and such there always seem to be someone there that  you just know you are going to fight before the night is over, especially where you are partying. There were certain people that I would never run with because I knew it would be like a can of gas and a book of matches.

Dogs senses are or should be a lot better than humans. After all most violence from intruders will be someone you know or knows you, such as old boyfriend,  girlfriend, ex husband,wife, or someone that you are acquianted with. Most times you may not know but your dog will know, or should.

A lot of dogs react  to a person, because he senses you are not comfortable. This should be normal. Regardless of whether a dog knows the person or not he in my opinion should alert until told it's ok . You can't expect a dog to not react even if he or she knows the person. A dog should react naturaly to good, or bad based on senses not aquaintences.

Just my opinion

Hank

I having been reading this thread with great insight. I might have missed something. ---------- isn't the "ex" a one time live in? If so, if the dogs had been handled correctly, both humans would have been alpha in the pack. In this case, wouldn't the dogs have considered interfering as a pack position challenge, not a protection situation? If you review must wolf documentaries, if two alpha challenge each other, the rest of the pack simply stay out of the way and watch.

Fawn, LOL, op said, "drunken ex-acquaintance" , not ex-Lover. lol

Knew I missed somthing.

I may be the only guy on earth that believes this, but to me it's not a pack order in this case. I have had dogs all my life and have been around 2 what I would call true Alpha males One is Santo of Sapphire mountain, and the other was Shrivers Squirt a Queensland Blue heeler.

I think the relationship between dogs and humans are taken to a vast extreme. Even the relationship between wolves and dogs.

A lot of people that have dogs that claim to be the Alpha in their pack is because they never had a true Alpha to start with. Most dogs are not willing to take the position. So they let you think you are.
If you had a true Alpha dog and did not feed him or her for a week and threw down a big slab of meat on the ground, would you be willing to get on your hands and knees and claim it? A true Alpha would. 

We have a dog that does not particularly like me. He obeys me because he has to, not because he wants to. My 7 year old grandson can go out there and work him trying to get his 90# body in a little cardboard box as a kennel and the dog will be plum wore out trying to fit in it, because he wants to obey. Big difference


Hank 

 Duke:

 OK you did address the correct issue here....the DOGS  yes I agree , first you have to have the correct DOG with the non stop fight instinct , under controlled management of THE OWNER
who in this case would  be the one needing the protection from his drunk friend.

 BUT I will stand by , the fact, remains, by the posting facts given by the OP, he./she does not have the KNOWLEDGE of what kind of pup or gsd to have on premises.

Lot of wasted time thinking that all the  :"threatened people will instinctively put their ARM up to shield the dog if he comes at them....so teach the dog to go for a sleeve or arm...

  OH we have one armed bandits now a days with no feet or crowbars in the other hand ?>

 LOL

  There is not a posted remark from all of you that does not show, with intensity that this situation is or was not handled by the OP correctly and mainly out of not being knowledgeable of the breed.
  SOMEWHERE along the days of watching fellow friends at police training, or having a gsd given or sold to him by some police breeder friend etc, the OP has never read , studied or researched from a real trainer who has lines of gsd that are considered to be STRONG< prey driven> Fight Driven> and they do not know how to test a pup to buy for what they say they want their grown gsd to end up doing for them

MOST john doe public has no clue that just any ole gsd will NOT rise to the COMPLETE occasion. Fear biting and barking and hiding under chairs or behind the owner , as examples were given are just a few of the happenings when people get in trouble in a home violence situation. UNless the intruder shoots point blank , in the head between the eyes , your GSD , your gsd has the FIRST out in the situation as it is his home and he should be on that person like a BULLET, and if he gets shot , he still has lots of kill drive to stop the intruder so yu can run or grab a phone , alarm button or a gun.

I will let JIM explain what if his wife turns on him , what his dog would do............that would be the answer to  WHAT IF the dog knows both of you , but of course, JIM is the Alpha master of his PATROL DOG>>>THE dog Jim has would follow JIMS COMMAND>   HIS command if his wife did turn on him , he would unless she was going to  kill  him, give his dog a COMMAND>>>>every dog has to be obedienced in your home incase it is your son who comes thru a door at 3 am ,dark and your dog thinks it is an intruder,

HAD that happen to an Officer who owns one of my males..he came home early one night and his wife was till asleep. THE Door was locked so he used his key and his and her dog..not a patrol dog, was asleep at top of stairs..THE minute the door opened , Azar was at his leg and he was in the process of lurching at him, when Javier called his name and outed him..

OBEDIENCE < CONTROL> OWNER KNOWLEDGE > has to be done to a QUALIFIED SPECIMEN GSD< ROTTY? DOBERMAN? MASTIF? ANY DOG

YR- Im not convinced that the op's knowledge of the breed had anything to due with the dogs not giving the reaction wanted. There are plenty of people that may be more knowledgable who still belive their dog is the one that will get it done when it needs doing. Of course some are right, I personally dont believe that would be most or even many.

Im with you as a former my dog is the one... person. But your example's are... to be fare.. comparing dogs picked by proffesionals and trained by professionals. We all would expect a professional outcome. Thats not what we have here. The dogs you describe are the exception to the norm. Most dont have them. Most dont need them, and most dont want them. Those drives need to reserved for those that can.

The whole my chi poo terri lapso came to protect me, is the whole issue. If we go by straight definition then all of the attacking ankle biters are in fact protection dogs. According to these reports they protected their owner from bad people. The people whos shepherd barked, lunged, snarled, nipped as well. All protection dogs! My chi poodle included.

 

If you take a karate class at the Y you can also have a level of protection. But if someone ask's for your wallet in a cold dark alley you would not want to decieve yourself into the belief that you are ready for disamarment because you know techique B-7 and or have a leashed terrier at your side. Not going to turn out the way of hollywood. Wax on wax off. With all do repect to all killer terriers out there, if the bad guy wants you.... tuff guy terrier will get booted into the next dimension.

 

As ronin with direct experience relates and others have stated no guarantee even with great training and big dogs, no matter how much pixie dust in your belief systems. 

After reading these types of threads for years for me it boils down to semantics, the few wont call the ankle bitter or the snapping lunging nipping gsd a protection dog because they offer the bare minimum of protection. Still protection!

The most believe that all snapping nipping lunging GSD are in fact protectors because they offered some protection sometime or would. Teaches nothing with regards to a real fight.
 

Whos right? For me both, a win win here. But if you want or need serious protection or whats labelled as real protection when has high level talent ever just manifested itself in the real world without training and a pre disposition except in very very few instances, also described by ronin as "anyone can have a lucky day". Why chance it. 

 

If someone teleports an average tough guy into an Afghanistan fight even with all the latest weaponry and no training mental or otherwise when the pee stops and he realizes he is being charged I really dont see John Wayne tough coming out..... even with the dukes genitic kid. Not that its completely out of realm of possibility, but realistically who wouldn't prefer some training, some real experience, on the guy next to you in rEaL fight.