wolf in the GSD lineage? - Page 1

Is this correct?

I heard a story that Mores Plieningen , a mate of Horand von Grafrath and mother to VA Hektor von Schwaben, was half-wolf. I've also heard that there were several full wolves listed in the early studbook.

I'm looking for more information on this: whether it is indeed true, or whether it just a tall tail... er, tale. If anyone has information on this, or where I can find resources to aid this little research project of mine I'd be most appreciative.

Allegidly there are 4, I think, if memory serves - but most GSD people will argue all day on this one.

IMHO why would anyone that was breeding a sheep herding dog, put wolf into the mix?

There had been some wolfbreedings with some Czech/Slovak dogs to bring more civil agression. As well as there is todays "wolf dog" with its own registry and championships. I dont know about wolf breedings to the foundation dogs, and I cant see why anyone would have done so in those early days. Meaning: trying to accomplish what?

There are wolf dog mix's done for the look.   I don't think its a good idea.   I don't believe they were used to develope the GSD tho.    Flight responce makes them a bad choice.   

Maybe 10 million years ago.................   I dunno.

They know as much about the dog's origin as they do man's............ not a lot.    Too many hole's in the story.

Is this correct?   I doubt it.

Moon's.

A whole chapter concerning this is given in The Alsatian by Geo. Horowitz first ed 1924, followed by several updated later editions. Even then there were several different tales and arguements for and against this;

"Monsieur Otto Rahm (Switzerland) stated that Hecktor von Wohlen was the product of a mating between a dog wolf and an Alsatian bitch"

Whereas von Stephanitz stated "this occured at a much earlier time than Otto stated, and that the great- granddam of Hecktor von Wohlen who was Mores-Plieningen, had a great-gransire who was the result of a mating between a wolf and a Alsatian at the Stuttgart Zoological Gardens approx 1881"

Herr Strebel stated that Phylax von Eulau I. was the result of a similiar mating, also Woelfi von Wolfsnest.

Pam

True or not I imagine it was discovered that this was not the way to go.

I've bred cross's and the only thing I could say is it's not a good idea and improved nothing.

Ambii, Yes, four is what I heard also. I chose to omit that little bit of the story. The wolves were allegedly somewhere between SV #40 and SV #80. I don't know specifically which SV#s they had.

Wildmoor, thanks. I have some connections in the "book underworld" (lol) and have already tracked down a first edition in the UK. I'll have to wait to read that chapter till it gets to the US.

Elkoor, do you have more specific information on wolves into Czech/Slovaks? Programs, dates, names?

Wolfdog registries... there are so many of them depending on what strain of dog and wolf are combined. most registries try to keep it limited to a particular dog x wolf combination, rather than just all dogs and all wolves together. I cannot think why someone would put wolf into a herding dog as it seems counter-intuitive to the objective of having something to -protect!- the flocks... especially given the historical views on wolves at that time. The other thing is that historically it has been shown, time and time again, that wolfdogs with a high percentage of wolf in them (offspring out of at least one wolf-parent) do not have a higher civil drive than pure dogs, but instead quite the opposite.

A friend of mine has had wolves and wolf hybrid rescues for well over 20 years, and he will firmly state that even a cornered wolf will still look for an escape route, than take on the man.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html

1. Rich saddle sable, black sable, faded sable.
Sable is the original wolf colour, with a paler ground colour overlaid with a mantle of black tipped guard hairs. In the shepherd this ground will be tan, with an overlay which is heavy and may appear from a distance to be black. Willis discusses, but is not convinced of, the existence of two alleles for sable: grey and yellow. However, the same variation in colour can occur in B&Ts, and can be perfectly well explained by other, better documented genetic influences. I do suspect however, that there may be two sable alleles affecting the degree of extension of the black mantle: one for the saddle or blanket marked sable, the other for the so-called black sable, which shows distinct black markings on its pasterns, toes, stifles, and hocks, and often black overlay on the throat and chest. Some black sables are so dark that they appear black, until they move and the lighter under fur shows through. Two such alleles, if they exist, would coincide with the genetic distribution of pigment in the B&T and the darker bicolour.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html  has a great layout of all the GSD types and several look very much like wolves.   I dare say the wolf was bred into the GSDs more than we will know, as well as some 'mutt' lookalikes after WW2 when the gene pool was greatly depleted. 

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Somewhere at one time wayyyyy back I did read that the 'GSD gene is still the most like the Wolf gene.  Anyone who can confirm that?    Is this perhaps why some GSDs have the dark blue spots on their tongues?  Several of mine do.  

I think but don't quote me, there is a .02 difference in Mitochondrial DNA between Wolves and dogs.

The difference between pure instinct and the ability to reason?