why no fight from the helper in KNPV??? - Page 1

never been to holland to see a real trial but from YT the KNPV helper seems to be the most passive of all the sports?? am i missing something, the KNPV is said to be the hardest sport on dogs but i can't see how? can somebody please explain how the helper work tests the dog. i mean the guy just stands there once the bite is effected???

You should perhaps do some more research. In the 
working KNPV trials, the helper actually must strike the
dog several times with various equipment.

http://www.dutchshepherd.webs.com/knpvhistory.htm

i did notice the hits, not sure if they are anymore harder or more  than in schuts.  not trying to diss the sport i am trying to understand it and why the different cultures do the things they do.

strange how when people ask questions on forums they get told to do their research - asking questions on public forum is not eating a ham sandwich.

what would people post if they already knew everything???

Well, since quite a bit of information is readily available on the 
program itself, I guess not everyone feels like typing out everything
again for something that could be researched.   If you took the 
time to look into the program and what is required of the dog in 
both the PH1 and 2, you would have a better idea of what the helper
does in a trial, and how it tests a dog.

There was a small group that tried many years ago to start an 
American KNPV club, hoping to end up being affiliated and recognized
by the KNPV, but it would never be successful. Holland will not permit
the program to be done and officially recognized anywhere else.
They also used to permit non-resident members, but I believe that
changed a few years ago as well, although we do have a close friend
that has retained membership still to this day. There have been a small 
handful of Americans successful in titling dogs in the program in Holland
over the years, but a very small group indeed, less than 10 for sure. The
most successful 'American' was Judith Powell and her male, Nico v Neerland.
All their achievments can be seen on their website: http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/
Judith kind of 'cheated' since she was originally the KNPV office manager so
obviously grew up in Holland 

First, all the exercises in the KNPV are centered around police work, that is the basis of it all. Second, the dog does get challenged, it gets hit BEFORE the actual bite, sometimes the dog is too fast and the helper cannot get a hit in there, but, the hits are with real sticks, you can see them sticking out of the ground in the field. That hit hurts, plus, you have the gun fire, the challenging the dog after the out with throwing items at it, etc.
KNPV is not the hardest dog sport, that title goes to the NVBK in Belgium, but, please think this way...how hard is it to get a dog to engage and stay engaged while there is motion from the helper? Its much more difficult to have a dog bite a helper who is not offering any prey movement. The dog must work off its own energy and aggression instead of feeding off the helper. Those KNPV dogs are hard dogs, the program itself is difficult and its been around over 100 years asd I said in another thread.

thanks for the info i was aware of the hard dog rep in the knpv and thats why i was curious about what appeared to be the passivity of the helper after the intial strike, makes sense now that someone explained it. i guess a dog hanging off someone that appears to be unmoved by the dogs attack would take some nerve in the dog to stay in there.


the other thing i was wondering is the decoys don't seem to try and absorb a lot of the dogs energy, it's just a big crunch like hitting a wall. do the dogs have to bite high, i have never seen them go low in the long bite, a rule?  i am aware of the other leg bites in the escape or whatever they call it in the knpv.

the knpv dog barking from the rear seems so much more practical than the frontal bark & hold which i think is for show more than anything.

some protection work i have seen (YT) in PSA? looks like it would take a exceptional type of dog as well.

thanks for info.

Good post by hired dog.  It is just another point of view or way to evaluate and test a dog.  Some dogs NEED helper stimulation (whether it be prey or agitation) to stay engaged.  Also with a passive helper in KNPV there is a great deal of time to evaluate the dogs grip too.  There they like to see a pushing grip.

A well known KNPV competator came to our PSA club to do a seminar and it was interesting to see young dogs who have always engaged and active helper become unsure and sometimes dis-engage the decoy when the decoy took a knee and stopped moving.  Much of that was just about training...something they weren't exposed or taught to do before this, but it was disheartening for some of the owners.  But good for our trainers that learned to expose young dogs to it.

Luckily my dog did great with it...she likes to pull/yank, which they don't like... but she has a strong/firm grip and settled into this new thing with the decoy on his knee pretty good.

there are legbites in these videos 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9vnw8OvnIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfDNPJc63MI

there are legbites in these videos 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9vnw8OvnIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfDNPJc63MI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9vnw8OvnIU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfDNPJc63MI

GSDfan, a small correction in your post. KNPV does NOT evaluate nor award points for bite quality, its a police dog organization, they want to see the dog bite and stay on the bite.
The only sport where quality of bite is evaluated and awarded points is the NVBK in Belgium, hence the genetically full mouth Malinois that you see pushing into the bite.